Religion & Religiosity
Jun 16th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer
Rima says religion and religiosity are to blame for much of Indonesia’s, and the world’s, troubles.
Why religion doesn’t matter at all
Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold; there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts; there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami; there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and; there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
302 Comments on “Religion & Religiosity”
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Shloka says:
@ Patrick,
Did I tell you that I happen to have the hugest crush on ancient Egyptian God Osiris? I’ve planned a lavish wedding with him next week, but of course Isis has to sign the divorce papers first, so there’s that little hitch.(Another hitch is I’m underage,but as Jewish God says marriageble age is 12 and in Koran Allah says 9, and practically all other gods agree its no problem) I’m inviting all the gods of all faiths to this wedding though Monotheistic God won’t be able to attend, as He’s undergoing therapy for His Multiple Personality Disorder, the poor soul! Actually, the counsellor was quite willing to let Him off therapy for one particular day, but I declined. I want God to get over this as soon as possible, so that He gives answers to the following questions:
1) Is He really One ( Jews, Muslims), Three in One ( Christians), Three distinct and separate personalities(Mormons) ?
2) Did He really have a Son (Christians), was the pretend Son simply an imposter(Jews) or was he another prophet (Muslims)?
3) Does He accept Mary and the thousands of Saints as intercessors(Catholics) or does He not (Jews, Protestants,Muslims)?
4) Was His last Prophets’ only the Torah Prophets’ (Jews), Jesus (Christians)Mohammed(Muslims), Mirza Ghulam (Ahmadiyyas), Bahaullah(Bahais) or Joseph Smith (Mormons)?
5) As He’s said so many times to kill those worshipping others’ in the Koran and Deuteronomy, what does He feel about wicked, disobedient nations’ like Lairedion’s Holland which outright disobeys His instructions and give freedom of religion? Why doesn’t He send plagues on them? And why does He not send a bolt of lightning on Lairedion’s head. Okay, so Lairedion didn’t exactly convert to “false gods” but He’s shown enough sympathy with them, so that a Catholic mistook him for a polytheist!
After God’s done with His therapy and gives answers I might “convert” after all! So there’s still hope for me.
And about that bit on racism, I didn’t imply you’re a racist at all, I just wanted to say that, you couldn’t possibly be a racist and get away with it in the 21st century. Nor could you be a sexist, and in many nations, you can’t be a homophobe either! But since religion isn’t subject to the same scrutiny, you can well call other’s gods “false” and “creations” and get away with it.
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Patrick says:
Ok Shloka I will answer all your posts as best as I can! On the issue of who are USA Fundamentalist & how are they defined:
Mormons would never be defined by mainstream Protestants as Christian Fundamentalist. In fact they would not be defined as Christian at all as their ideology would be considered too strange in comparison. Catholics would not fit in the category of Christian Fundamentalism either as there are differences with ideology as well. However, in recent years Catholic groups have banned together with Fundamentalist on certain issues that they see eye to eye with and that would include abortion, defining marriage as between a man and a woman, prayer in public schools etc., Most fundamentalist are Baptist, Evangelicals, Methodist, and other main stream protestant congregations. Also, many people follow Evangelical ministers on television and the majority would fall into the category of Fundamentalist. Fundamentalist in the USA are usually law abiding Protestants who believe that the USA was founded on Christian values and they wish to enter the political arena to insure that the nation does not become so secular that those Christian values are either undermined or totally removed from areas where they have stood for decades. An example of this would be the issue of marriage being between a man and a woman. Several states, (California & Massachusetts) have had the State Courts rule that current marriage laws are unconstitutional thereby paving the way for same sex marriage which is opposed by the Fundamentalist.
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@ Shloka –
1. On St. Thomas most accounts agree he was martyred and I believe the account you refer was first credited to Marc Polo who came to India many centuries later. I can imagine how the story went: Hindu hunter says to Thomas ‘will you join with us to be our prey” but unfortunately Thomas hears it as “will you join with us to pray”. I guess something was lost in the translation? Anyway, most historians don’t find that to be credible.
2. I think I proved Japan so why not just admit it like the Japanese are admitting it? This is definitely a weakness of yours and that needs to be overcome.
3. Your AIDS example is interesting to me. First, my whole point, from my view, was and continues to be that almost all religions have in their past history or are currently committing atrocities or persecuting others because of religious differences. If you look at your quantitative effort to only see that AIDS is found with higher prevalence rates in Africa than say Europe or North America what besides that have we discovered? The answer nothing really. We can only make assumptions based on observations such as Africans are more free with their sexual attitudes then Europeans or North Americans and therefore have only themselves to blame. However, if we say AIDS is found with higher prevalence rates in Africa because of such things as lack of money to fight the disease and this leads to inadequate supplies of hospitals, clinics, medicines, counseling, condoms, literature, clean donated blood and medical personnel. Now we have identified real causes for the much higher prevalence rates and we can begin to formulate a strategy to combat AIDS and hopefully over-time reduce the prevalence of AIDS in Africa.
This same thinking can be applied to the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism. First, as Timdog pointed out weeks ago Muslim people must be viewed as human beings capable under the right conditions of living side by side in peaceful harmony with peoples of other faiths. Indonesia, as Rima pointed out in her essay was a shiny example “Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.” Now, we can begin the process of finding out what problems are present in the Islamic World that leads to terrorism and more importantly what can be done about it to reverse the situation and bring about positive changes. An example of this is that Lairedeon pointed out that Saudi Arabia’s ability to export Wahibbism to many countries was a huge factor in the growing intolerance of other faiths by Islamics. Saudi Arabia not only exports ideology but also money for schools and mosques etc. Strategies would be needed to somehow negate the influence of Wahibbism on countries like Indonesia. This could take direct pressure from The USA, EEC , China, Russia etc., to convince the Saudi’s it is not in there or anyone else’s best interest to export this radical form of Islam. Another strategy could be to have an influx of competing funds from various donor countries to promote more peaceful brands of Islam etc. The point is in this day and age it is impossible for us to isolate a religion of one-billion people as the world has become so small so we either become part of the solution or we are part of the problem! Peace!
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dewaratugedeanom says:
I took the time to reread this entire thread and came to the conclusion that after the enumeration and display, however informative it may have been, of all the atrocities committed by adherents of different faiths, the only sensible conclusion to reach is that no religion, being it polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic or otherwise, has been able to avoid, let alone eradicate violence and evil from this world. All one can say is that if religion, as it is interpreted by many, was meant to upgrade people into better beings it has wretchedly failed. On the contrary, in many cases it has succeeded in creating the worst lowlife one could ever imagine. Very depressing, indeed.
Maybe we’d better turn to Science and try to find in it the answers to the ‘big’ questions that are bothering us and from which religions originated. Unless it is human nature itself that is to blame in which case also Science will do us no good and we must accept the Green Bank equation assuming that every advanced civilization which has mastered the technology of mass destruction will characteristically annihilate itself within a decade of achieving radio astronomy. So, carpe diem, and let’s enjoy it while it lasts.
@ Shloka (if you’re still there)
While concocting stories about Reconquistas I suggest you include one about the coming Reconquista of the Great Empire of Majapahit. You may cast me in the role of its Commandante, a reincarnation of general Gajah Mada, coming to fulfil the prophecy of Sri Mapanji Jayabaya – “when iron wagons drive without horses and ships sail through the sky a new ratu adil (just king) will arrive to restore Hindu-Javanese civilization in the archipelago”. Fyi, Prapanca, a court poet, described Gajah Mada as “eloquent, sharp of speech, upright, and sober-minded.” When my mission is completed you will be rewarded with the appointment as official court historian and Minister of Information. After your graduation of course for which I wish you every success. 🙂
Majapahit will rule again. Merde. Merde. Merdeka!
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@ Patrick
Now, we can begin the process of finding out what problems are present in the Islamic World that leads to terrorism and more importantly what can be done about it to reverse the situation and bring about positive changes.
I suppose one way of doing so is by diverting the attention from the real problem to futile and historically doubtful allegations of atrocities committed in the name of Buddhism, a religion and philosophy which nowadays has started to pose a threat to Christian Anglo-Saxon imagined belief in its own intellectual superiority.
Nice try, Patrick. but I’d like to hear the Indonesian Mrs. Patrick’s opinion about all this, cause she was the reason you joined this forum in the first place, if I remember correctly. -
@ Dewarat – Last week you said – “I haven’t yet had a chance to read all the previous posts after July 11, so probably Shloka has already rebutted all your nonsense about the links between Buddhism and militaristic atrocities. But anyway here are my final 2 cents.”
1st posting today you said – “..took the time to reread this entire thread and came to the conclusion that after the enumeration and display, however informative it may have been, of all the atrocities committed by adherents of different faiths, the only sensible conclusion to reach is that no religion, being it polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic or otherwise, has been able to avoid, let alone eradicate violence and evil from this world.”
2nd posting today you said -” …historically doubtful allegations of atrocities committed in the name of Buddhism, a religion and philosophy which nowadays has started to pose a threat to Christian Anglo-Saxon imagined belief in its own intellectual superiority.
Nice try, Patrick.”Patrick says: Just what are you saying in your double (triple) speak? Last week you are disagreeing with me and now you agreeing with me and then in the 2nd post today you are again disagreeing? Come on man! where is that clear mind you bragged about with your description of Majapahit? You just cannot seem to make up that obviously muddled mind of yours can you?
I also find it interesting that a self proclaimed male prostitute (kuta coawboy) would have the gall to refer to anyone else as a “lowlife”. You have an amazing delusional self image of yourself that others just cannot fathom?
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@ Patrick,
I’m aware of the fact that a large section of the Christian population have not recognized Mormons as mainstream Christians, however the Mormons do insist very strongly that they’re Christians. (re Mitt Romney) Their situation is similar to the Ahmadiyyas. Anyways, how to best define a Christian or Muslim?You must be aware that as soon as Christianity was made the state religion by Constantine, the Arian and Gnostics were caled heretics.There are innumerable sects of both Islam and Christianity, and as many followers denounce many as heretics, the best way to determine whether a faith is indeed Christian is self identification, isn’t it? Of course, how Christian or Muslim they’re in their moral values is another matter altogether.
However, even Mormonism’s founder said that he’d a revelation from God, didn’t he? There’s as much reason to disbelieve him as to disbelieve Mohammed or Moses, especially as Mormonism today has more followers than Judaism. And One God can’t give these contradictory revelations, can he, or for that matter the cruel injunctions of kiling non believers as the Deuteronomy says.
In fact, Marco Polo first sent the maryrdom tale to the West. And as I said, you have to remember that Christianity was NEVER persecuted by Hindu Buddhists. So one Christ killed by a non proselytizing faith, or one St. Thomas’s martyrdom doesn’t equal in anyway the thousands of Hindu-Jews killed afterwards, who weren’t even proselytizing ( again, nothing wrong with proselytizing, and I’m not condoning murders) but simply holding on to their faiths. Christians like to tell stories of their persecutions, like for 300 years in the Roman Empire, yet they’re silent on the Christian persecution of Greece and Scandinavia afterwards. I can guarantee that had the Indian Christians’ been tormented by Hindus’, you’d never hear the end of it. 🙂
I admitted Japan’s complicity. But you didn’t give a hyperlink to the full article, which said that all Japanese faiths of the time, including Christianity supported the war. And as the soldiers’never destroyed a religious shrine or converted by force, its unfair to call it a war of religion. Same as Germany’s war, which has similar religious underpinnings. I’m not going to blame those killed by Germany solely on religion (Germany killed more than Japan) but on fascist tendencies, colonies and national glory, and same with Japan. Thats’ where its different from a religious war to a war with religious elements. And you seem to forget that Japan’s primary religion wasn’t even Buddhism, only state Shinto. Buddhism was the religion with the second most number of adherents’, followed by Christianity.Not only Buddhists, the Japanese Protestant Church has accepted responsibility and apologised as well.
With the AIDS example, we really have discovered little except that its more in Africa. I’ve never blamed Africans’ but its important to acknowledge that its more in Africa than say Europe, as its the best way to a solution. How does one cure an illness which one doesn’t even acknowledge? Accepting that Africa has more AIDS shouldn’t lead to African men and women being considered morally inferior or oversexed, simply maybe checking blood transfusions, distributing condoms and practicing abstinence. Thats’ what Uganda did successfully. They have a ABCD programme, A=Abstinence, B=be faithful, C=condoms and D=or death. I praise their efforts. Now suppose Ugandans had started saying that as many people were dying of AIDS in Canada as us, and called cancer deaths in Canada as AIDS deaths, what good would it achieve? Its best to accept that Africa has AIDS deaths, and then work for a solution. Likewise, if you blame Zen Buddhists, I can just as well blame Deutsche Christians, and Germany killed more than Japan, yet the World Wars were overwhelmingly for national glory and colonies. Its a fact that a war for explicitly religious reasons hasn’t been fought by these faiths, just as its a fact that Christianity has become relatively tame in the West, while Islam is causing major disturbances worldwide (maybe it will follow suit, who knows?) Muslims’ today shouldn’t blame a past cases of Christian fundamentalism, rather work towards why they have a problem at present, and hope to resolve it.
I have said in reply to Pakmantri that I have no permanent problem with Islam, but you live in America(?) and I live in a nation which shares borders with Pak and Afghanistan leading to many bloody deaths. Yes, I like your solution, and have no hopes for an eradication of Islam, but life is very difficult for non Muslims’ living with Muslims’ anywhere currently, be it Sudan or Saudi Arabia .
Islam today cannot be compared to Japan for another reason. At no point in history had all Buddhist nations gone wild and waged wars, just one strand of Buddhism, were supporting Japanese soldiers war efforts, like other religions (including Christianity) in Japan. You yourself mentioned Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabism, there’s violent Jihad in Algeria, Iran, Sudan, Pak and Afghanistan, to mention only a few places.There’s even homegrown bombers like the Bali bombers, who’ve emerged out of Indonesia itself. For the avarage Balinese faced by Indonesian Muslim bombers and the avarage India, faced by Indian Muslim bombers, life’s very grim.
That said, I have no desire for an annihilation of Islam, a reformation would do nicely.
And just like you call not accepting Japan’s war a major weakness of mine, you have a major weakness too. You don’t have any examples of forced conversions of natives or foreign territories, large scale wars for religious reasons, taxes or oppressions on a particular faith like happened to Jews, for a good reason. There aren’t any examples. So if I mention a Reconquista killing thousands’, you give a single martyrdom and claim that it happende in all countries. Its’ just like Canada’s AIDS v. Uganda’s AIDS. Ugandans need to look into what precisely is causing an AIDS pandemic, rather than inflate other nations’ AIDS.
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Odinius says:
Mormons are the Christian Ahmadiyya: they see themselves as Christian but are viewed by most Christians as separate.
The difference is that Mormons, Ahmadiyya and anyone else in the US can worship who and how they please. That is because the United States has, enshrined in the Constitution, the line that government “shall make no law respecting or inhibiting the free practice of religion.” But this has not led to less church or mosque or temple attendance. The US is by far the most religious developed country in the world.
Indonesia is not marked by religious freedom, but religious pluralism, where the state is the arbiter of authenticity. Now that Indonesia is a democracy, is this really the best system? What happens if a political party like PKS comes into power and starts declaring kejawen and even NU traditionalism heretical?
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@ Odinius,
Thats’ exactly what I said about Mormons being very similar to the Ahmadiyya. Both Christianity and Islam believe their Revelations to be the very final ones and their scriptures as the inerrant and final word of God, so the newer revelations of Ahmadiyyas or Mormons are difficult to accept for them.But U.S.A. has seen substantial declines in faith too-the 1991 Census showed 86% Christians which declined to 77% in 2001, although it still leads the developed world in religiosity.
I agree with what you said that the U.S.A. is more tolerant than most Muslim nations today, including Indonesia, but Indonesia and Turkey are shining beacons of light in the present Islamic world, being one of the few Muslim nations that allow leaving Islam a legal possibility. Turkey is a better example than Indonesia perhaps, as it even allows atheism, although the memories of the Armenian Genocide shows contradictory evidence.
@ Patrick,
I agree that most U.S.A. Christians and so called Fundamentalists’ are law abiding citizens’ but there are nasty exceptions. The ones’ in Dover who wanted to ban Darwinism in schools, Pat Robertson’s comments on other faiths if you’ve forgotten, re read my post on his quotes) and George Bush Sr.’s comments that an atheist has no right to be called a citizen comes to mind. And on the topic of gays, the Anglican Archbishop of Nigeria said that gays are “less than beasts” whereas Britain’s Anglican Church and the Scandinavian Lutheran Church has gay bishops, so there isn’t unanimity of opinion on this from all Christians.
About prayer in public schools and heterosexual marriage, maybe fundamentalist Muslims’ feel that Islam becomes undermined if women appear in public without hijab, so they want to make hijab mandatory in Islamic nations and punish women who don’t comply. You may justify the Christian stance while oposing the Islamic one, but both are attempts to impose one’s values on those differing. Anyway, how much can Christian values be tampered with? Thats’ debatable. I can gather from your posts that you consider idols “false gods”, but would you advocate killing a Christian who converts’ to these “false gods”? Thats’ what God would want in Deuteronomy, thats’ what Christian nations have been doing for yearsisn’t overlooking that bit “undermining” Christian values too? OT abhors homosexuality, and “false gods” equally. 😉
Anyway we cannot deny that the U.S.A., like every nation, has some bigots’ and the incident in the U.S.A. army concerns chaplains’ which you know about is such an incident. Yet compared to Iran, its overwhelmingly tolerant of pluralism. Jerry Falwell has said of women, “I know it is painful for the ladies’ to hear, but when you get married, you’ve accepted the leadership of your husband. Christ is the Head of the Church and the husband is the Head of the wife, and thats’ the way it is, period. There is no other way.”So Iran can take such lone figures as an example, and claim that it “proves” U.S.A. is as sexist as them, or it can seek to learn from America how and why its more egalitarian.
Similarly in the absence of religious conquests, widespread forced conversions, Crusades and Inquisitions, you might point to one death of Jesus at the hands of Jews or one death of St. Thomas in India and claim that these non proselytizing faiths are just as intolerant. Or you might seek to know why these faiths(non monotheistic faiths and even monotheisms like Judaism for the most part) have never forcibly converted entire territories to their faiths or had Crusades, Inquistions and world wide Reconquista violence. 🙂
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ButShloka, the point is that the US is not a Christian nation, nor has it ever been. It’s a secular society that takes an explicitly agnostic view of religious practice. In other words, the vast majority of Americans may be Christian, but America is in no way, shape or form Christian.
In the same respect, Indonesia is not Muslim either. But its system of dealing with religious diversity is completely different, and I would argue, untenable in the long run, because it declares that government is the final arbiter of religious authenticity, meaning that control of government means control of what constitutes official religion. This is the problem I have, and it applies evenly to the relationship of the state to any of Indonesia’s religious groups.
Yes, Indonesia is in many ways a shining light for the broader Islamic world, because it shows that Muslim societies can embrace democracy when allowed to do so on their own, can (mostly) respect religious minorities and can tolerate broad diversity within its faith categories. But I would only stop at that if I didn’t really care about Indonesia. Because I do, it’s important to me to see Indonesia progress into a developed, modern society for all its residents, and the wars over who’s legitimate and who’s not are, to me, backsliding rather than progressing 🙂
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@ Odinius,
The U.S.A.’s truly a unique case in Western Christian history, it started out with a secular and agnostic view of religion. In contrast, much of Europe went through imperfect democracies and shuttled between progress and backsliding before progress finally, and it seems irrevocably won the day. In fact today, Sweden or France definitely take a more agnostic stance towards faith than U.S.A. does.
Taking an optimistic view of things, Indonesia might follow suit in due course. On the other hand, its entirely possible that it would go down the slope Iran and Sudan have, and all Indonesia will be like Aceh or worse. Time will tell.
@ Patrick,
Coming back to the World War ii again,
I read this story in some American publication about a man who was in the German Air Force during World War II but who later became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, he recalled:
What disturbed me during those war years … was seeing clergymen of practically all denominations Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and so forth blessing the aircraft and their crews before they took off on missions to drop their deadly cargo. I often thought, Whose side is God on?
German soldiers wore a belt with a buckle on which was inscribed the words Gott mit uns (God is with us). But I wondered, Why wouldn’t God be with soldiers on the other side who were of the same religion and who were praying to the same God?
So it appears many religious leaders had center stage during those years.
So many of the exact same elements can be seen in Germany’s and Japan’s wars, besides the fact that Germany started the war and killed a few millions more- complicity of Deutche Protestants in Germany and Shinto, Buddhist, Christians in Japan, clergymen wishing the best to soldiers, Germany soldiers wearing a belt with the buckle that God is with them and Japanese too being convinced of their divine mission, apologies from various denominations like Shintos, Buddhists and Christians in Japan and from the Archbishop of France for German atrocities- that its difficult to ignore the religious bits. However, its really an overstatement if I decide that Germany ” blessed by its priests, killed more in 5 years than all monotheists have for millennia.” as the war was essentially nationalistic and fascist with priests often compliant. The real God of the war, if it indeed had one, were Fuhrer Hitler in Germany and the Shinto King of Japan. And its a well documented fact too that Germany or Japan didn’t forcibly convert any territory and while Germany singled out Jews, Japan killed indiscriminately.
Thats’ what I said about Japan, not minimizing the war time role of any faith, simply that its a well established historical fact that except the Muslim & Christian faiths, other major world faiths (including Judaism) have never forcibly converted large territories, or had Inquisitions over whether people are exactly complying with the faith or not. Just like with the AIDS analogy, its obvious that all countries are grappling with AIDS related deaths, yet AIDS isn’t leaving behind milllions of orphans anywhere except Africa. Africans should accept this obvious fact, rather than try to inflate others’ AIDS deaths. Just like lack of condoms, medical personnel etc pose problems’ in Africa, Gods’ words in Deuteronomy and some belligerent Koranic verses might pose a problem. Deuteronomy applies to Jews too, but as Judaism isn’t a proselytizing faith, its seldom had similar disastrous effects.
Jews stayed in Western India for millennia, all was peaceful, but when the Iberian Catholics arrived, forced conversions and killings became de riguer for two centuries.
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The U.S.A.’s truly a unique case in Western Christian history, it started out with a secular and agnostic view of religion. In contrast, much of Europe went through imperfect democracies and shuttled between progress and backsliding before progress finally, and it seems irrevocably won the day. In fact today, Sweden or France definitely take a more agnostic stance towards faith than U.S.A. does
Agreed. But i definitely think Indonesia would end up like the US, rather than like Sweden or France. Faith is too ingrained into people and there is also a legitimate marketplace of faiths, wherein various religious people compete over adherent. Sweden and France were countries with very little religious diversity that grew tired of their official religions.
Taking an optimistic view of things, Indonesia might follow suit in due course. On the other hand, its entirely possible that it would go down the slope Iran and Sudan have, and all Indonesia will be like Aceh or worse. Time will tell.
My instinct says it will turn out more like the US than Sudan, because every election demonstrates that only about 20% minority of voters want parties that hope to make Indonesia more Islamic-oriented. That’s actually the same % as the number of Americans who support a Christianizing political platform.
But you never know. The recent Ahmadiyya action, FPI and the success of the PKS are disturbing.
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@ Shloka and friends – Hopefully Indonesia will not wind up like India with a violent intolerant Hindu majority who seek to control and subdue Muslim and Christians alike.
The Protest “Peace Rally”
It seems on November 11, 1998 a crowd estimated between 1.5 million to 2 million came to Peace Rally to protest the many religious atrocities being committed by Hindu FUNDAMENTALIST (interesting word eh?) around India. They crowd gathered from various Catholic and Protestant denominations was particularly outraged by the savage rape of Catholic nuns (nuns take a vow of chasity) by Hindu Fundamentalist.
The following letter was read to the crowd and approximately 70 prominent leaders of various Christian Faiths in India have signed it.
All India United Christian Voice
P.B. 517, Frazer Town P.0., Bangalore – 560005
MEMORANDUM
Submitted by a mass rally of Christians and well-wishers held at Bangalore on 11th November 1998.
TO: HIS EXCELLENCY, THE GOVERNOR OF KARNA’I’AKA & THE HON’BLE CHIEF MINISTER OF KARNATAKA
for onward transmission to:
THE PRESIDENT OF INDIA & THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA
Sirs,
We express to you our deep concern and apprehension at the alarming rise in vituperation of the fundamentalist forces in the country in the last few months. Although a large number of the majority community do not share the ideology and action of the fundamentalists, this small group, which is bent upon sowing seed of disharmony and hatred, can send danger signals to the minority Christian community. The present trend can adversely affect the nation as a whole in the fields of economic and social development in our pluralistic society.
The atrocities being committed against Christians are not merely isolated instances but form part of a grand, scheme of events meant to subdue and intimidate the minority community. In addition to the brutalities unleashed by these evil forces, the utterances of certain personalities in the extremist organisations have fuelled the rise in communal passions. It is agonising to read reports of the digging out of a dead body from the cemetery and throwing it in to the courtyard of the house of a Pastor, of burning Holy Bibles, desecrating and destroying churches and assaulting Christian workers, molesting, nuns, issuing threatening letters to Christian Schools, interfering with the practice and worship of Christians etc. We wonder what they gain out of all these acts except harvesting the fruits of hatred – which is more hatred.
We have reliable reports of the complacence of the law enforcement forces and their reluctance to file charges when atrocities are reported as the accused are sheltered by some elements in the Government machinery and the politicians.
In spite of complaints about the persecution in various parts of Karnataka made to the authorities – including the Governor – there has been laxity on the part of the State to react, respond and rectify. The chief strength of any democracy lies in the security of its smallest minority – this basic tenet has been ignored by our rulers.
Tampering with the established education policy and attempting to eliminate the rights and privileges of the minorities are only examples of the sinister scheme of the evil forces. A lot needs to be done to improve the compulsory and universal primary education from the present one-teacher primary schools with minimal physical facilities. Any change in existing policy must come out of consensus and consultation.
Historically the entry of Christianity into the country 2000 years ago can be likened to the entry of Aryans into India. The motive was and is to spread the gospel of peace. All these years all the communities have coexisted peacefully living in a pluralistic society and adapting to the local culture.
The current hostility of the self-styled desh bhakths towards the Christians, stews from a pardonable ignorance about their biblical faith and what truly motivates the Christians: LOVE AND CHARITY to our neighbors. The extent of the selfless service that this community has rendered to Indian society has been commendably under – chronicled due to our reluctance to blow our collective trumpet. We have served our brothers and sisters in India, with special focus on the poor and the under privileged, as a natural expression of our spiritual vocation. Mother Theresa’s example of selfless service stands unmatched, acclaimed world wide as a “saint of the gutters” and, as our own President H.E. Dr. K. R. Narayanan so evocatively stated, we are fortunate to have lived in the same century as this unequalled icon of Christian love and compassion.
For hundreds of years Christians have worked towards social reformation and spread of’ education. We deplore the forceful conversion. of any one from one religion to another. Genuine conversion is inspired by God and is a spiritual experience that transforms him or her into a different person with a spiritual perspective in life.
The Dalit Christians are especially agitated with the treatment meted out to them. Discrimination against the Dalits and tribals on the basis of their faith should immediately be stopped. There has been an inordinate delay by the Govermnent in rendering justice to the Dalit Christians
The recent tragedy at Jhabua and the Goebblesian pronouncements of the exalted political luminaries of the present Government have shocked and hurt all the Christian and secular forces in our country.
The duty of our government is, to protect the voiceless and the helpless. Instead we find the truth grossly distorted by several leaders including the Hon’ble Home Minister of India. We can only say that TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.Our appeal and demands to you are nine fold:
1. To uphold our constitutional rights and privileges without any dilution or modification.
2. True secularism and equality before the law must be inoculated in all our law enforcement agencies.
3. To prevent the spread of the canard that Christians are aliens. The faith of a person does not make him an alien. This must be reiterated.
4. The Christian presence has existed long enough in this country for it to be subsumed into the national ethos. At no stage have Christians exerted any kind of divisive influence on this country. On the contrary, their attempt has always been to integrate.
5. Saffronisation of education must be condemned and stopped forthwith.
6. A time-bound impartial enquiry by the Human Rights Commission or any international body into the Jhabua tragedy and all programmed vicious attacks on Christian institutions must be constituted immediately.
7. The special constitutional status of all minority institutions should be permanently preserved and protected.
8. The direct and indirect interference in our freedom of worship and expression of faith as enshrined in Article 19 of the Constitution should immediately cease to protect and preserve the integrity of our country.
9. All steps must be taken as part of National Policy to promote interfaith tolerance, Gandhian teachings, communal harmony and national integration.
Let there be an effort to break barriers and to work unitedly for a prosperous India. -
Yeah, the Hindutva stuff in India is appalling.
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@Shloka & friends – Shloka says “I admitted Japan’s complicity. But you didn’t give a hyperlink to the full article, which said that all Japanese faiths of the time, including Christianity supported the war. And as the soldiers’never destroyed a religious shrine or converted by force, its unfair to call it a war of religion.”
First of all during WWII the percentage of Christians in the population of Japan was approximately 1% so the effect that Christians had on the war or policy was probably almost nil since the Buddhist military was driving the war machine. Christians in Japan were also persecuted in the years leading up to the war and during the war itself. This forced many of the Christians to flee Japan. The Japanese Government in an effort to better control Christians merged all the denominations into one church called “The United Church of Christ”.
Now lets take a look at some earlier Japanese history with Christianity:
1. In 1597 an attempt to put an end to Christianity 26 Christians were crucified in Nagasaki. At this time there are about 300,000 Christians in Japan.
2. 1614 systematic persecution of Christians begin. Approximately 3,000 Christians are executed and many more are forcibly converted to Buddhism. Many were also made to burn crosses and tread on images of Jesus and Mary.
3. Around 1650 all foreign Christian missionaries ordered expelled from Japan. Those who did not leave were hunted down and killed.
4. In 1859 Japan once again allowed foreign missionaries into the country. After, 200 years of persecution only about 30,000 Christians remained. -
@Shloka – you said – And as the (Japanese) soldiers’never destroyed a religious shrine or converted by force, its unfair to call it a war of religion.
Tell that to the Korean and to the Philippines peoples!
“NY Times July 13, 1919
HORRORS IN KOREA CHARGED TO JAPAN; Presbyterian Church Makes Official Report of Murders and Tortures. CHRISTIAN BURNED Investigators Tell of at Least Thirty Men burned to Death in a Church. Torture of Political Suspects. Many Cases of Torture. Revolting Treatment of Women. Christian Village Wiped Out. Only “A Little Disturbance.” The Burning of Tyungju ChurchTHE JESUITS’ SAN IGNACIO CHURCH Manila, Philippines: Burned down by the Japanese in 1945.
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@ Patrick,
I did praise Indonesia and Turkey didn’t I? The Hindutva stuff in India is appalling which I agree completely but who says its worse than Indonesia? Indonesia also has regular church burnings, just check out the various churches burned in Indonesia as reported in the IM threads. And the forced conversions. And don’t even compare it with Saudi, Pakistan or other countries’ in the Middle East. Which of those nations’ allow missionaries? And Indonesia has an Aceh like province where hijab is compulsory and it doesn’t allow atheism, which India does. Which sect has India banned like the Ahmadiyyas are banned in Indonesia? And Indonesia’s neighbour Malaysia- its illegal to leave Islam there.
As for the Christian %, yes it was very low in pre war Japan but if you remember knich’s statements and check Japan’s history, the Buddhists’ were facing equal hostility too. Shinto became the official religion, and the Emperor estranged it from Buddhism, which led to the Sokka Gaido sect being a minority sect.
And I never said these stuff never happened in the East, just that it was far less volatile. And you haven’t got a forced conversion by Japan, have you?
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@ Patrick,
There’s a list that the Christians’ submit to the Indian Government, can you please ask them to submit such a list to Saudi, Pak, Sudan, Afghanistan or ANY other Muslim Government? I’m keen to see the results.
So much of the Middle East was Christian too, upto the 15th century, the proportion of Christians in Iraq was 50%, today its 5%
And didn’t the Japanese Government allow missionaries in the first place? Even till 1850’s leaving a particular form of Christianity was illegal in most of Europe, forget foreign missionaries. Japan allowing missionaries in 1859, when it was illegal in Norway to leave Lutheranism is a huge step. Did missionaries dare tread in the Muslim Middle East?
Since you’re so fond of the present Islamic world, what do think of India following suit and banning missionaries. India was the land which gave Mother Teresa a chance to start her missionary organization, we should’ve been like the Muslim nations that ban missionaries, shouldn’t we? And maybe we should’ve driven the Indian Christians who were converted by St. Thomas out like the Jews in Europe.
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@ Patrick,
This is another World War ii example.
During World War II a number of Croatian Catholic priests, not only cooperated with the regime but were implicated in murders and forced religious conversions of Serbs and Jews. In a few cases the whole population of villages was killed because they were Serb Orthodox; conversely, there have been cases where villagers were superficially converted and remained alive. There were cases of local involvement in genocide, including Friar Majstorovi?. According to Dr. Miši?, the Bishop of Mostar, even newly-converted Serbs were rounded up and murdered:“ While the newly-converted are at Mass they seize them, old and young, men and women, and hunt them like slaves. From Mostar and Chapljina the railway carried six waggons full of mothers, girls, and children under eight to the station of Surmanci, where they were taken out of the waggons, brought into the hills and thrown alive, mothers and children, into deep ravines. In the parish of Klepca seven hundred schismatics from the neighbouring villages were slaughtered. The Sub-Prefect of Mostar, Mr Bajitch, a Moslem, publicly declared (as a state employee he should have held his tongue) that in Ljublina alone 700 schismatics have been thrown into one pit.(Mish*tch, cited in Butler, 1956).
See? Entire villages of Serb Orthodox killed by the Catholics, AND forced conversios with even the superficially converted killed by the ruthless Catholics. You give me wartime examples, I’ll give you better ones, just like AIDS cases of Canada v. Uganda.
And you can’t offer Crusades and Inquisitions or the French Wars of religion, simply as there weren’t any.
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@ Patrick,
Another delightful account of church destructions and religion inspired violence, this time by Christians on an already Christian nation.
This is the Filipino American War,some scholars estimate 1.5 million Filipinos ultimately died in Philippine-American war. This is one sixth of the total population of Phillipines at the time, more than the Japanese killed in Phillipines.The US President William McKinley justified this brutality, however, saying that after praying to “Almighty God”, a message came to him that Americans were in the Philippines to “uplift and civilize and christianize” Filipinos. He was obviously not aware that the Filipinos had been “christianized” for 400 years by Spain. I’m sure the Filipinos would have rather done without this violent Christian “civilization”.
After 1902 the United States occupied the Philippines until after WWII and thus began the first major imperial venture of the United States outside its region. The U.S. military bases in the Philippines were retained, however.
In the mid 1980’s retired U.S. General John Singlaub, president of the World Anti-Communist League, led an aggressive and violent anti-communist campaign in the Philippines to counter the growing anti-US bases movement in the country. Countless leaders, including Christian pastors, working for the poor in the rural areas were labeled as communists and subject to harassment or summary execution. Like the Spanish use of Catholic priests, the U.S. evangelicals flooded the Philippines to bolster the U.S. image and likely to dilute the movement against the U.S. bases. So the Filipinos not only had to struggle with endless human rights abuses from the government and the U.S. supported Philippine paramilitary but also the arrogant, flagrant and well funded Christian evangelicals.
I’m sure Mc. Kinsey’s statements amply show that “religion” was a major aim, didn’t it? Since Phillipines was Catholic, the President meant Protestant, I guess.
Again trying to prove Canada has more AIDS than Uganda. Tch tch.
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@ Patrick
Patrick says: Just what are you saying in your double (triple) speak? Last week you are disagreeing with me and now you agreeing with me and then in the 2nd post today you are again disagreeing?
Maybe you should learn how to read. I said
the only sensible conclusion to reach is that no religion, being it polytheistic, monotheistic, atheistic or otherwise, has been able to avoid, let alone eradicate violence and evil from this world.
which is still something entirely different than blaming a religion like Buddhism for lying at the base of or for instigating violence like you are trying to do.
I also find it interesting that a self proclaimed male prostitute (kuta coawboy) would have the gall to refer to anyone else as a “lowlife”. You have an amazing delusional self image of yourself that others just cannot fathom?
I had said
On the contrary, in many cases it (religion) has succeeded in creating the worst lowlife one could ever imagine.
Did I ever mention you personally as lowlife? Or are you becoming paranoid?
Also, if you still haven’t understood what I’m trying to express and denounce with the ‘Kuta cowboy’ thing then you are either a hopeless case or you have to go back to school and learn the meaning of irony and satire.
Aduh. What a bore.
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@Dewarat – The good thing about when things are written down we can always go back and see the “paper trail”. I stand by what I wrote and you sir were shown to have a very muddled mind.
The Male prostitute thing (oops! I am so sorry as Kuta cowboy makes it sound so much more cooler!) is that you have no moral high ground to be referring to anyone as a “lowlife”. And that sir, if you are under the impression that you do have the moral authority, would be IRONIC to those of us who know better!
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On the contrary, in many cases it (religion) has succeeded in creating the worst lowlife one could ever imagine.
For your help when I mentioned lowlife I was referring to vermin Amrozi, Samudra et al. who are still publicly and sadistically enjoying the misery they caused in the name of Islam. The case of Imam Samudra is particularly enlightening because when the police captured this Muslim ‘moral crusader’ they found on his laptop hundreds of pornographic pictures of Western women as well as disturbing pictures of the victims of the Bali bombing.
But maybe these pictures were put there by Zionists and Freemasons or even Buddhist extremists.Are you reassured now, Patrick?
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@ Shloka – I think its time you yield your moral high ground as well. I think by now even you must have realized that it has been proven beyond a “shadow of a doubt” that Eastern Religions are as guilty as Christianity or Islam when it comes to crimes and atrocities committed “in the name of religion”. Your last several postings (and arguments for some time now) remind me of how the Americans played the numbers games into deluding themselves that they were winning the war in Vietnam and the hearts and minds of the people as well. You were not even born then but the Americans would post daily, weekly, monthly and yearly body counts in a vain effort to convince the “people back home” that more enemy killed than Americans equaled victory. It was a sad effort in self delusion and it actually had the opposite effect on the American public then what had been intended.
Its time to either end our “endless” and now pointless discussion or move on to a different topic. What say you?
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@ Patrick
I stand by what I wrote and you sir were shown to have a very muddled mind
Yes Patrick, you are right. As always.
Goodbye and please don’t forget to remit my sympathies to Mrs. Patrick. -
@ Patrick,
I say:
Many Protestant Christians were burnt at the stake or otherwise killed in the reign of Queen Mary I of England, including Thomas Cranmer and two bishops Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley, the Oxford Martyrs.Expulsion of the Salzburgers from Austria
On October 31, 1731, the Catholic ruler of Salzburg, Austria, Archbishop Leopold von Firmian, issued an edict expelling as many as 20,000 Lutherans from his principality. Many Lutherans, given only eight days to leave their homes, froze to death as they wandered throughout the winter seeking shelter. .
Persecution of Huguenots by Catholics
The slaughter of Huguenots (French Protestants) by Catholics at Sens, Burgundy, in 1562 occurred at the beginning of more than thirty years of religious strife between French Protestants and Catholics. These wars produced numerous atrocities. The worst was the notorious St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre in Paris on August 24, 1572. Thousands of Huguenots were butchered by Roman Catholic mobs. Although an accommodation between the two sides was sealed in 1598 by the Edict of Nantes, religious privileges of Huguenots eroded during the seventeenth century and were extinguished in 1685 by the revocation of the edict. Perhaps as many as 400,000 French Protestants emigrated to various parts of the world, including the British North American colonies. Persecution was resumed under Louis XV, 1724-1764, gradually subsiding in the decades leading up to the triumph of laïcité in FranceMuscovy and Imperial Russia government forcibly baptized Muslim Volga Tatars and pagan Chuvash, Mordva and Mari after the conquest of the Kazan Khanate and Astrakhan Khanate in the 1550s. Mosques were prohibited. This persecution ended only during the reign of Catherine II of Russia
.Christians and Gnostic sects
The Waldensians, a group which can be considered a precursor to Protestant and Evangelical Christianity was likewise persecuted by the Inquisition.
Individuals whose views were considered deviant could be convicted and executed, as happened with Jerome of Prague, John Badby, and Jan Hus.
Drowning of Protestants in Ireland
Approximately one hundred Protestants from Loughgall Parish, County Armagh, were executed by mobs at the bridge over the River Bann near Portadown, Ulster. This atrocity occurred at the beginning of the Irish Rebellion of 1641. Having held the Protestants as prisoners and tortured them, the Catholics drove them to the bridge, where they were stripped naked and forced into the water below at swordpoint. Survivors of the plunge were shot.
Execution of Mennonites in the Netherlands
In the Netherlands, David van der Leyen and Levina Ghyselins, described variously as Dutch Anabaptists or Mennonites, were executed by Catholic authorities in Ghent in 1554. Strangled and burned, van der Leyen was finally dispatched with an iron fork. Thieleman J. van Braght’s Martyrs Mirror is considered by modern Mennonites as second only in importance to the Bible in perpetuating their faith.
Persecution Jesuit in Great Britain
Jesuits like John Ogilvie (and seminary priests) were under constant surveillance and threat from the Protestant governments of England and Scotland. Ogilvie was sentenced to death by a Glasgow court and hanged on March 10, 1615.
Brian Cansfield, a Jesuit priest, was seized while at prayer by English Protestant authorities in Yorkshire. Cansfield was beaten and imprisoned under harsh conditions. He died on August 3, 1643, from the effects of his ordeal. Another Jesuit priest, Ralph Corbington, was hanged by the English government in London, September 17, 1644, for professing his faith.
Massacres of Catholics in Ireland
Thousands of Catholic residents were massacred by Oliver Cromwell’s Protestant troops at Drogheda, Wexford, and Waterford, during the Irish campaign of autumn and winter 1649. All of the survivors of Drogheda and many from other places were sold as slaves to the West Indies. In 1652, all Catholic-owned estates east of the River Shannon were confiscated, and their residents were evicted en-masse amid plague and famine that killed an even greater number. Approximately 600,000 people, nearly half the Irish population, died during the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. The penal laws of 1690 caused still more destitution and emigrationThese numbers alone beat by far any Christians killed in the centuries you mention by non Christians, and “for simplicity” I exclude the killings in the Americas, the early spread of Christianity and the eternal discrimination against Jews. Makes me feel that the Indian Christians were so lucky to be living among Hindu\Buddhists. I feel, if even a dozen Christians’ baptized by St. Thomas were killed, we’d hear no end of it.
Feel free again to think other gods as “false”. You’d be following in the noble footsteps of St Thomas Acquinas who said, “Heretics not only deserve to be punished in the Afterlife, but also removed from this world by death.” And advice your Fundamentalist law abiding Christians to follow Christianity to the last letter, and kill both gays and Jews. I hope its a bye bye from my side. -
@ Patrick,
Oops! How did duplicate comments come? I dunno and it wasn’t my intention. Even going by simple World War ii atrocities’ one of the two proselytizing faiths (Christianity) win outright in the intolerance department, and the centuries you mention saw thousands’ of Christians’ killing each other. Makes me think what would happen if a non Christian Buddhist missionary stepped into those lands?
Its a difficult task- I understand and completely sympathize with you. Just like trying to prove that the U.S.A. of today is more intolerant of other faiths’ than Saudi. The Saudis will have to painstakingly collect all intolerant acts said or done by Christians’, but the truth is still obvious.
By the way, since you mentioned gay marriage as objectionable, what’s your take on Neopagans in U.S.A.? Should they be killed too as God in Deuteronomy repeatedly says? 😉
I don’t actually care for the answer. Goodbye and goodluck, and hopefully this time forever. 🙂
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Lairedion says:
Patrick said:
Its time to either end our “endless” and now pointless discussion or move on to a different topic.
Good idea but try to stay focused in the next thread. In your anger and emotion you’re clearly having trouble doing so by mixing various threads and comments. I suggest you take some meditation lessons with your local Buddhist organization in Miami.
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@Rima – Finally Shocka seems to have finally yielded to the voice of reason and by her sudden retreat we can conclude that yes almost all, if not all, the world’s religions have committed atrocities and violence on peoples of different faiths (or lack of?) in the name of God or their gods or whatever. However, it must be also noted that early on, Berlian Biru, commented that more atrocities were committed by non religious regimes (see post on page 1). So what conclusion should be drawn?
For me I liked the way you described your early childhood. How religious Indonesia was and how friendly peoples of various faiths were to each other. Your parents gave you the gift of religion and therefore you came to know beauty and compassion of God. Yes, your parents (you referenced your dad as teaching you to dislike Jews) made some mistakes after all that is part of the human experience as well. My dad made similar mistakes but he gave me much more good things to know than bad. Now you are older, more knowledgeable about the world and you find yourself questioning your faith based on observations of modern Islamic teaching in Indonesia. You have also drawn the contrast that as Indonesia becomes more religious, Islam has become increasing less tolerant toward people of other faiths. You also point out quite well many of the hypocrisies of modern life found in your country (but that can describe most other countries as well). This perhaps is the most confusing element and question. “How can an increasingly religious country become so caught up in the trappings of the modern world’? Your conclusion is that religion is the culprit and that it is a poison upon the minds of the people. But is it the culprit? How do you explain the happiness you experienced as a child? The peace and harmony you witnessed between peoples of various faiths? How do you explain similar materialization going on in China, Russia, and Europe where religion is not as important or rapidly dwindling in stature?
You no doubt know the story of creation and how evil entered the world through man. Just as doing good makes for happier people, evil corrupts and is tireless in dividing brother against brother and fosters hatred for one another. It is only through the Creator of all things, Our God, the monotheistic God of all Abraham religions can we hope to find true peace and true brotherhood for mankind. I know I will be again accused of prosetlyzing on this thread and this time I will fully and unapologetically accept that charge as there is no shame in helping lead people back to the One True God! Go back to your Islamic religion and embrace your faith the way your parents did. Teach your children to love and respect all people regardless of their faith (or lack of) and lead others in your community by the good example and testimony you give. Finally, use your impressive writing skills (and I am sure speaking as well) to be a voice of reason and hope for Islam. Because if you don’t do this who will? Then what?
@Lairedeon – Thank you for your less than kind comments and I will respectfully decline your invitation to take mediation classes. The reason? I have seen what is has done to your mind and one only has to look at your silly avatars to see your inner-anger. Peace!
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@ Patrick,
Its even a matter of some doubt how Thomas died, one account says that he was killed, another says he died out hunting. And yes, since you know a bit of this story, did you know that when the Portuguese visited India, they were horrified by the Christians who behaved like baptized heathens? The wanted them to behave precisely like the European Catholics, which caused many deaths and many breakaway sects?
Anyway, how did that tiny island of Christianity survive in the ocean of Hindu Buddhists who were either outright intolerant or insidiously converting? It survived due to Hindu\ Buddhist tolerance. When the Holy Inquistion began in 1184, under Pope Lucius iii to crush out Catharism, a distinct faith\sect, Dominic exhorted them to quit the faith in vain, after which he decided that tormenting them might do the trick. Catharism vanished and the Jews were incessantly driven from place to place by Muslims’ and Christians. How did the Christians and Jews’ live in such peace for millennia?
And about Japan again, its easy to read in religion into any war. The American Civil war, where the Southern Church supported slavery, The Holy Alliance of the 19th century between European powers suppressing democracy, you name it. This attempt is so much like Russian agnost turned Christian Ivan Panin’s claims(he also wrote a book) that the Bible was divine as it had a “hidden symmetry”. It turned out that such a symmetry can be proved in any random book. Similarly, as there haven’t been Wars explicitly for religion in non Monotheistic faiths, you’d put in an attempt to classify any war they fought as being closely tied to religion. What next? Alexander the Great’s wars as attempts to spread Hellenic paganism?
Since you mentioned “all faiths” even in India, there were times in the Middle Ages when Hindus recovered a territory from Muslims’, but NOT ONCE did a Hindu ruler banish, kill or convert all Muslims’ to Hinduism, never mind tormenting the innocent Jews and Christians’ As I said before writing a new history is the only way to “prove”
I can see that the attempt to prove non monotheistic faiths equally intolerant can be a very uphill task. Its like trying to prove that Europe is as AIDS revaged a continent as Africa. Since “quantitatively” its incorrect, you’ll either have to multiply the AIDS deaths in Europe by 100 or attribute deaths to other causes to AIDS.
So to prove non proselytizing faiths as causing deaths, you say:
1) One Jesus killed by Jews( tragic, wrong,now you’ll again call me shameless)= All the millions of Jews slain by Christians for millennia.
2) One St. Thomas’s debatable martyrdom= The Inquisition in India by Christians which killed, banished and tortured thousands of Hindus and Jews.
3) Every war fought by non Monotheistic faiths = Religious war if even one non monotheistic Chaplain is present or gives blessings. Hence Alexander the Great’s Wars, the Peloponessian War let one have a faint glimmer of religion, and forced conversions or no forced conversions- they’re religious wars to you. Period.
4) Any sports- Karate, Ju Jitsu or Tai Chi, any book- Harry Potter , any non Christian celebrity- Richard Gere(Buddhist), Tom Cruise( Scientologist) are “insidious” attempts to lure people away from God. These aren’t open calls for proselytization but we know they’re secret attempts, right?
Just like the Holocaust deniers’writings and books, a massive perversion and ignorance of facts and scriptural writings is required. Such writings even have support of some Jews, and a pretty prominent school of thought has grown around this view.