Religion & Religiosity
Jun 16th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer
Rima says religion and religiosity are to blame for much of Indonesia’s, and the world’s, troubles.
Why religion doesn’t matter at all
Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold; there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts; there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami; there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and; there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
302 Comments on “Religion & Religiosity”
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Patrick says:
@Shlocka, Dewarat & Lairedion – Shloka said:
” Rather nice to see your turnaround. You seem the one “scorned” in your proselytization efforts, not me!”
I see you have all gathered for my demise and you have accused me of proselytizing and have not accepted it for what it was, and that was facetious remarks bordering on sarcasm. OK I will play along, let’s imagine, as you do, that I was prosetelizing. What kind of a crime is proselytizing anyway? Does it for instance deserve public stoning? Or do we sneak up on the individuals in the middle of the night and pour gasoline on the vehicle and burn the accused alive? And hey, if his young children happen to be with him, would that be perfectly OK as maybe that would fall under collateral damage and thus the price to pay? Or is it even a crime worthy of public ridicule and ceaseless attacks on a man’s character? Lairedion since you first accused me and your two Hindu polytheist brethren concur (Shloka has become absolutely obsessed) perhaps you would like to explain what exactly about proselytizing that disturbs you? After all, is not prosetelizing both an expression of free speech and freedom of religion? You’re from Holland a democratic nation which guarantees these two freedoms? It’s frightening for me to believe that a man who has expressed such fear and hatred of Islam & Christianity because of their perceived intolerances is himself intolerant? You seem determined to deny me or anyone else our right to propagate our faith even when done under honorable conditions.
In summary, what you three Hindus Polytheist are really trying to say is that I (or anyone else) do not have the right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom of religion? Shame on all of you!
Its true what the bible says “birds of a feather stick together”
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Lairedion says:
Patrick said:
Lairedion since you first accused me and your two Hindu polytheist brethren concur (Shloka has become absolutely obsessed) perhaps you would like to explain what exactly about proselytizing that disturbs you? After all, is not prosetelizing both an expression of free speech and freedom of religion? You’re from Holland a democratic nation which guarantees these two freedoms? It’s frightening for me to believe that a man who has expressed such fear and hatred of Islam & Christianity because of their perceived intolerances is himself intolerant? You seem determined to deny me or anyone else our right to propagate our faith even when done under honorable conditions.
I said earlier in this thread:
Your answer is typical of the Believer who lives his/her life on the notion: “I’m right and you’re wrong because I believe in God and you don’t.” But unlike Khmer Rouge and other Reds I won’t deny you the right to believe. If you want to believe the Old Grey Man with the Beard will judge you, that’s OK with me. I only claim my right to disagree and follow my own common sense and reason.
In your anger and frustration you have lost focus and you downgrade yourself with false accusations and name calling. My point of view is that your religion is to satisfy your own needs only, it’s none of my business but at the same time I just want to be left alone so there’s nothing honorable with proselytizing efforts if the people you target are not asking for it. It’s quite annoying basically.
In summary, what you three Hindus Polytheist are really trying to say is that I (or anyone else) do not have the right to freedom of speech and the right to freedom of religion? Shame on all of you!
Its true what the bible says “birds of a feather stick together”
I’m not a polytheist but I never came across a polytheist who looked down on me because I didn’t share his/her beliefs. However I’ve met plenty of Christians and Muslims who did so. And what is it with polytheism that sparks so much anger with you?
Emotion, jealousy, anger and frustration are taking over because you’re running out of arguments and losing focus. Characteristics of the True Believer.
Adios, Patrick. Catch you on another thread.
Yours truly,
Jayanegara -
Shloka says:
@ Patrick,
A news report for you:
Police investigating the sending of a package which exploded in the home of a Christian pastor in Ariel are leaning toward the theory that a Jewish anti-missionary was behind the attack, the preacher told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday.“They [the police], as far as I understand, do not suspect Palestinian terrorism. They suspect a Jewish anti-missionary motive,” Oritz told the Post by phone from his Ariel home, minutes after returning from the hospital.
Ami’s life was no longer in danger, his father said, but he was still suffering from serious injuries all over his body.
“His neck had an eight-inch [20-cm.] gash like someone slit his throat. He has a ruptured lung. Doctors had to operate on his tongue. He has second-degree burns to his chest and arms, and there is no flesh on the thighs,” Oritz said, adding that doctors were forced to amputate two toes. “They’re trying to continue to make sure that he won’t lose his arms and legs. His whole body is full of fragments of shrapnel,” he said.
Oritz described the moments after the explosion when the teenager’s mother, Leah, “saw flames coming out of the windows after going downstairs to throw out the garbage.” After running upstairs, Leah saw “her son on the floor. She held his neck and she kept the wound closed with her hands.” Using her paramedic training, “she made a hole so he could breathe. Then the ambulance driver who arrived kept him alive. When we got to hospital, he was operated on in five places,” Oritz said, adding that he considered his son’s recovery to be “a miracle.” Oritz’s Jewish-born wife, Leah, is a member of Jews for Jesus. The pastor says dozes of families in Ariel have been influenced by his teachings. “We have about 50 families,” he declared.
He described a long history of tensions with anti-missionary activists in Ariel, which included flyers and a petition calling for the family to leave the city.
“My neighbor said he had been told by religious Jews that if we were the only people living in this building, they would’ve bombed it.” Oritz said.
COPY PASTED (not personally written) by Shloka
Israel also has anti missionaries attacking Christian proselytizing groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which again contradicts your notion that the monotheistic God is essentially the same. One a particular thread, I’d read a Jewish woman say, “Whats’ the difference between Hamas and missionaries? The Hamas prey on Jewish bodies, the missionaries prey on Jewish souls.” You seem to like repeating one tragic missionary story, which is very sad, yet such things aren’t unique to India, they’ve happened in other parts of the world as well. A Hindu temple in Minnessota, U.S.A. was vandalised and idols imported from India for thousands of dollars smashed. You narrated an Indian incident, I an Israeli incident of intolerance, but these are exceptions rather than the rule in either nations. There are some racist attacks and even murders in U.S.A. or U.K. too, but do those rare attacks prove these Western Countries are white supremacists?
The right to freedom of religion and freedom from religion isn’t only in Holland’s constitution, but also in Hindu India and Buddhist Thailand and Japan’s Constitution. Yet while you glibly claim freedom of religion and when Western nations give freedom of religion, they go against what God said in Deuteronomy 13:7-11(kill even your most beloved people if they try to lure you to worship others) and Deuteronomy 13:12-16 (burn down towns where people start worshipping other gods)while if Hindus, Buddhists or Shintos give freedom of religion, its in accordance with what their holy scriptures say.Another thing, while I didn’t react favorably to your missionary efforts(or giving you the benefit of doubt, wishful thinking) missionaries seldom try to convert the likes of me. They go for the poorest of the poor, and the souls they more often than not “save” are of those people whose bodies are writhing away from starvation.
As to whether Muslims and Christians have right to proselytize or not, yes the Christian and Muslim nations granting freedom of and from religion have such a right. Missionaries from Muslim nations like Saudi, Mauritania, Yemen, Iran,Afghanistan, Algeria, Malaysia and many others which either imprison or legally execute apostates have no such right, as there’s no right without a corresponding obligation. Just for your information, look at the number of missionaries murdered in tiny Turkey(tiny compared to India) It alone dwarfs the missionaries killed by Hindus.
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@ Patrick,
Sorry to go on about Japan (must be my wretched tenacity!) but Japan was hardly the first expansionist nation in history, not are Japan’s war atrocities, appalling though they are,a first in history. The world’s first great military conqueror, perhaps the greatest was Alexander the Great, a Hellenic polytheist. He annexed Anatolia, Egypt, Persia and even North West India. In each of these countries’ he fought bloody wars, yet he or his men never forcibly converted the defeated lands to their Hellenic polytheism, his new subjects’ faiths were left completely untouched. When Alexander defeated Persia, his soldiers brutally massacred the Persian populace, yet they never disturbed the Zoroastrian faith. Yet a millennia later, when Muslims’ invaded Persia the non Muslims’ were known as Dhimmis, had to pay a special tax the jiziya, and were often forcibly converted to Islam. Incidentally some Zoroastrians fled to India, where they were given full freedom of worship by polytheistic Hindus.
As an Indian I can tell you that Buddhism was a dominant faith in India for a millennia and a half. It gradually died out partly due to being absorbed into Hinduism ( which was completely peaceful, without brutal wars) and partly due to its brutal suppression by Islam. During the time of Buddhism, some Indian Emperors patronized Buddhism, and some Hinduism. Yet there isn’t a single historical instance of prisoners of war being forcibly converted to either Buddhism or Hinduism. After the Muslims’ conquered India, of course, prisoners’ of war were routinely forcibly converted to Islam.
When the Caholic Spanish conquered the Moorish territories, they banish, killed or forcibly converted thousands of Muslims’ and Jews.
Alexander’s acts like Japan’s acts were examples of militant nationalism, whereas forcible conversions in post Moorish Spain or Iran after the Muslim invasion were religious fanaticism. Both are despicable, but both can’t be blamed on religion.
I got your point when you said that you didn’t seriously intend to convert me, but the only reason I remain skeptical is because, we weren’t exactly very polite to each other after you only included the Abrahamic faiths in faiths, thereby excluding almost half the world population. The your tone changed after you put in the conversion bit, when you asked me to go ahead and post as its a great way of sharing knowledge. You told me that you believe in the Trinity “which is a great mystery, not yet revealed to us by God.” but Muslims call their God Allah (SWT) and Swt is “subhan wa tala” which means Allah is supreme and doesn’t have any sons. This contradicts the notion of Trinity.
The reason I brought in atheists was simply, if monotheism is considered an improvement on polytheism as it reduces the number of gods to only one, shouldn’t atheism be considered an improvement on monotheism as it subtracts the last remaining God?
And why do you suppose I’ll immediately buy your Biblical tales to become converted? God, Holy Ghost, Son, Satan, fallen Angels’, Virgin births et al would sound as superstitious to a non believer as polytheistic gods\esses seem to you. The superstitions aren’t reduced in the slightest, but as they’re concentrated in One God, the stories become boring. That is why the Western world is so interested in the “lliad” and the “Odyssey” and archaeologists like Heinrich Schliemann have devoted as much attention to unearth the Trojan War as archaeologists have to unearth the Exodus. Does anyone care about the stories of a dwindling monotheism like Zoroastrianism?
I’d pick my non jealous, non infidel killing gods’ any day over zealous non believer murdering God dictating books to people, especially as the Books dictated contradict each other! -
@ Shloka – After reading you last 2 posts we almost have to go back to the beginning to what Rima’s points were that set off the discussion. I say this because we ourselves are caught in a type of trap that allows for no successful conclusion or escape from these many issues if you will. I think your last posting reaffirms what Rima said;
“Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.Rima, in the above paragraph, is identifying some of the atrocities being committed by various groups against each other in Indonesia. As she is Islamic her chief complaint seems to be why these incidents are happening now in this day and age when things were much more peaceful in the Archipelago when she was a little girl years ago. Things have eroded so much that she says that no longer feels safe in Indonesia and she is asking the question what is going on with mainstream Islam to make it so intolerant to other faiths or even other Islamic sects? During the subsequent discussions you expanded upon Rima’s point by saying all major monotheistic faiths have a violent history
You said “Buddhism has also accounted for a lot of good and far less evil in the world, than the major monotheistic faiths during its 2600 years long history.”
Shloka you seem very keen, to me at least, to somehow prove that one group is much more violent than another. That would be a quantitative issue! My point is that almost all religions have at one time committed atrocities in their history (however small or large) and that is a qualitative issue. It means we are looking at the problem differently and therefore explains are complaints of each other’s arguments. In order to proceed we would have to agree which path to choose quantitative or qualitative. For me personally, I would only be interested in continuing this sort of discussion only if we choose the latter over the former otherwise we would have to list every atrocity committed during the course of history and you can imagine the absurdity of that option as we could be doing that for many months or even years to come That’s what I meant about “who has the time for that bullsh*t”. Admittedly, it was the wrong choice of words and I do apologize for that phrase although the concept is valid. An example of the qualitative is to accept or reject that Japanese Buddhism played a major role in the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers during WWII. An example of quantitative is to say yes it did happen but it’s still not as brutal as the atrocities committed by Christians for 2,000 years etc. We have been down that road for a long time now and with no end in sight. Therefore, if we could agree that all groups have probably engaged in at least some acts of violence toward other groups at some point in their history because of differences then we can move on to discuss other issues. Do we have an agreement? Thank you for your kind consideration of this point!
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janma says:
Patrick, you are just so wrong…. sorry mate… I understand what you are trying to say, but it’s just wrong… mainly because it wasn’t ‘japanese buddhism’ which committed atrocities. It was Japan, but not buddhism. and anyone with any modicum of logic and knowledge of history can see that proselytizing religions have created much more suffering in this world than non proselytizing religions.
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Hi Jamma – Below this paragraph is what I already posted several weeks back. Again, Janma its that reading comprehension thing you got going on! The atrocities committed by Japanese forces, with Buddhist blessings!, in a few short years surpassed all the people murdered by monotheist in the name of religion for many centuries. There are Buddhist priests such as Brian Victoria who are saying what I said about Buddhism in several SE Asian countries. Buddhism has become a servant of the state and therefore have become corrupted in their practices and have been used to either encourage or condone state action against human rights. Vietnam and Sri Lanka are two countries that fit the profile. I will agree it is rare for Asian religions to march to other countries in the name of religion but is not so rare that they commit atrocities within the countries that they already are established.
Patrick Says:
July 1st, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Meditating On War And Guilt, Zen Says It’s SorryBy ALLAN M. JALON
NEW YORK TIMES
Published: January 11, 2003
To many Americans, Zen Buddhists primarily devote themselves to discovering inner serenity and social peace. But Zen has had strong ties to militarism — indeed so strong, that the leaders of one of the largest denominations in Japan have remorsefully compared their former religious fanaticism during Japan’s brutal expansionism in the 1930’s and 40’s to today’s murderously militant Islamists……This appeared in the NY Times a few years back (again non-Christian publication) and should put an end to any arguments about Buddhism’s involvement with atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers during WWII and the year leading up to it.
I rest my case!
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@ Patrick,
Quantitative assessments are always used, heard of “more sinned against than sinning?” The Spanish conquistadores wiped out the civilizations of Inca and Maya, successive rebellions of the Incans and Mayans were ruthlessly suppressed, the population massacred and looted without pity. Undoubtedly the Incans and Mayans managed to kill a few Spanish as well, but were their actions nearly as brutal as those of the Conquistadores who performed one of history’s worst genocides? You know of Ireland’s colonialism, I of India’s colonialism. The British treated the natives as sub humans and committed many atrocities on them, and a few natives managed to get even with the British, but were the colonized people and colonial masters’ crimes equal in magnitude?
As for the Zen Buddhism case, it would’ve been a historical first for Buddhism to impose their faith by force on a defeated territory, had they won the war.Historically, Asia has been as embroiled in wars as Europe but never have Buddhist states imposed either their faith or their particular brand of Buddhism on the defeated. We don’t need to hunt half as hard as Nazi Germany in the mid 20th century to find evidences of anti Semitism, do we? There are ample examples of it before Nazi Germany’s horrors , and certain Vatican officials, most notoriously Bishop Alois Hudal who helped certain SS members like Adolf Eichmann, Martin Bormann, Franz Stangl and hundreds others escape to the Middle East and South America in the aftermath of the war, provide just an additional example. To give an analogy, when an accused is brought for trial, his past history is closely scrutinized. If he’s committed similar crimes before and has a murky past, the case against him becomes stronger, while if he has a blameless past, the case becomes weaker.
Again, the Japanese were fighting against the Allied powers,which means that Great Britain was its enemy, never ONCE mentioned that the purpose of their war was to, say, liberate Buddhist Sri Lanka from infidel Britain’s hands.
Just compare it to some of Osama’s quotes:
We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [an Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam.”
“We–with God’s help–call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan’s U.S. troops and the devil’s supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.” Feb. 1998 – Bin Laden edictOsama keeps commenting on Islam and slam’s supposed justification for his actions. He’s a Saudi guy, had he said for instance that its the duty of Saudi citizens(who also happen to be Muslims) to remove the American troops from Saudi soil, I’d call him a militant nationalist. He’s a non White, and had he said that the White Americans are responsible for so much of misery in Muslim nations, which have mostly non White populations, I’d call him a militant racist. In either case, a large number of Muslims’ would’ve joined his cause, and for some a motivational factor would’ve surely been Islam’s defence. But I’d blame racism or nationalism then, rather than Islam itself.
But Bin Laden’s wars, or for that matter the Inquisitions weren’t to do with either race or nationalism, as Bin Laden keeps repeating “every Muslim” its an expressedly religious war. Japan didn’t call on, “every Buddhist” to gather new territories for Buddhism, and even in the short time when it raped and pillaged through Asia it did every possible atrocity, except forced conversions to Zen Buddhism, or singling out say the Indonesians as they’re Muslims and were Buddhist before.There’s a difference between an American soldier who’s incidentally also a devout Christian killing Iraqis for his nation’s pride and safety(or nation’s oil:>)), and an American soldier joining the Iraq war with the aim of Christianizing Iraq and killing the enemies of Christianity, as Iraqis Muslims’ are forcibly converting some Iraqi Christians.
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@ Patrick,
In any case, there’s a fundamental difference between Abrahamic faiths and non Abrahamic faiths. You yourself said, “false gods”, “you worship the creation, we worship the Creator,” and Paul’s letter will show why “we feel the way we do towards idolaters.” The Koran too contains similar statements of the supposed superiority of Islam’s tenets.
But non Abrahamic faiths have no such superiority complexes- other faiths are their moral equal. Anyone with a belief in their superiority will treat others with contempt, as the Whites have often historically treated Blacks or men have treated women, there are far fewer instances of atrocities the other way round, as women and Blacks have seldom considered themselves superior. Thus men might very well love their female relatives, just as you say you love non monotheists too as your religion teaches you, but as long as men feel they’re superior, certain rights for eg. inheritance,suffrage, higher education, succession to royal titles will be and have been historically denied to women. The fault is men’s superiority complex, and a similar belief in superiority is expressed in Abrahamic faiths, and were present in some of your statements( false polytheistic gods and their preists powerless against monotheistic God) as well.
There’s also a belief, in John 3:16 in the Bible or Koran 5:86 which state non believers will dwell in Hellfire, but this too is absent in non monotheistic faiths. As faiths spend so much time detailing what will happen in the Afterlife, what can be a worse fate than eternal torment?The Christian missionaries in the New World who baptized Red Indian babies, only to promptly kill them, genuinely felt they were doing a good deed, and maybe the Muslim invaders in India, who smashed idols and forcibly converted the polytheistic masses to Islam were acting out of the goodness of their hearts too.
Finally in the case of conversion to other faiths(apostasy) we can see in Deuteronomy how much monotheistic God wants to torment apostates and the Koran(3:86-91) gives rather frightening descriptions of the punishments awaiting the apostate in the next world , while the concept of apostasy being completely absent in non Abrahamic faiths, there’s little religious justification to either convert others to one’s faith by force to “save” them from Hellfire, or worse, kill those straying to other faiths.
Finally, had you said that you look down on me and don’t want to “include” my country India, “for simplicity” in the category of nations which have contributed positively in the world as you’ll only include white nations, I could call you a “racist” and your attitude would only get you derision.You won’t be spared had you said feeling contempt towards non whites is an essential part of belonging to the White race. However, since religion inspired arrogance isn’t subjected to the same scrutiny as race inspired arrogance, and criticizing one’s ideas about God is considered wrong while criticizing one’s ideas of history or physics isn’t- you can freely tell me you look down on polytheists due to what Paul wrote, I only worship the creation and you the Creator(none of us have seen the Creator/s, and those who claim to have like the Prophets, have contradictory messages from him!) and your Monotheistic God has conclusively “defeated the false polytheistic gods”( although it seems likely that monotheistic God has plagiarized His Ten commandments from the false gods) as it says so in a story which you’ll call authentic history, and get away with it.
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@ Patrick,
Certain of your accusations are pretty baseless. The people killed by Japan “dwarfs” those killed by monotheists! This one particularly needs commenting on!
During the American Civil War, the Southern Baptists believed and spread the belief that Blacks were condemned to slavery! Have you any idea how many died in the American Civil War! What if all churches had unambigiously denounced slavery? The war might not have happened. Do you know of the forced conversions of Aztec’s to Christianity by Cortez? Many died in that. More recently the Rwandan Genocide?
Finally Japan’s ally in the war, Germany killed off one third of all Jews. In a Vatican approved paper of 18880’s said,” Oh how wrong are those who think that Judaism is just a religion, like Catholicism, Paganism, Protestantism, and not in fact, a race a people a nation… For the Jews are not only Jews because of their religion… they’re also Jews because of their race.” The Roman Catholic Primate of Polland August Cardinal Hlond in a 1936 pastoral letter, “There will be the Jewish problem as long as the Jews remain. It is a fact that the Jews are fighting against the Catholic Chutch, persistinf in free thinking, and are the vanguard of godlessness, Bolshevism and subversion…” The number of Jews murdered by Germany alone is 6 million, more than some estimates of Japan’s murders. Read “The Unholy Trinity:The Vatican, the Nazis and the Swiss Banks,” by M.Aarons and J Loftus. Loftus was also a Christian priest.
Granted that the ill treatment of the Jews wasn’t explicitly with the Church’s cooperation.Yet while the Vatican banned many books and ex communicated many during that period, Hitler’s Mein Kampf wasn’t banned and neither Hitler nor a single Nazi ex communicated. It is particularly instructive to remember that the Church didn’t absolve Galileo for heresy until the 1990’s.
The killing of Jews didn’t happen in isolation, it didn’t happen in India and China which had Jews for many millennia, the plant of the Holocaust grew in Europe due to the seeds sown by the likes of Roman Catholic Primate August Cardinal Hlond and hundreds of years of Church’s blessings to Jewish torment.
Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. “… I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord’s work.” Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938. He grew up as an altar boy and regularly heard the words “perfidious Jew” in Church, which wasn’t altered till 1961.
India and China won’t have dictators believing they’re doing the Creator’s work by killing Jews as anti Semitism was never ingrained into their faiths.
As for whether the Buddhists in Sri Lanka are actively suppressing people politically, that’s another pure speculation, without concurrent evidence supporting it. For instance, the U.S.A. lined up with the Vatican, Libya, Sudan and Saudi in the U.N. to ban sex education. Their stance was supported by the Christian right. We know this because the Christian Right says so openly, not on flimsy evidence and idle speculations.
To give examples, the father of Dodi Fayed, Mohammed al Fayed believes that his son and the Late Princess Diana were murdered on orders of the British Royal family as the Princess was planning to marry a Muslim. No evidence to this effect, yet he persists in this belief. The Malaysian President feels “Jews run the world by proxy. ” Again, no evidence that Jews indeed run the world.
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@Shlocka – If the Buddhist leadership in Japan can make the connection why cannot you? They even compare what they did to prepare the Japanese military with what Muslim terrorist are doing today. Do you also see the words “religious fanaticism”? Why then is so difficult for you to concede this point and move on? It is what it is! My suggestion is for you contact the Japanese Buddhist responsible for this statement and you can debate with them why they said what they said! Thanks!
(From NY Times)
“But Zen has had strong ties to militarism — indeed so strong, that the leaders of one of the largest denominations in Japan have remorsefully compared their former religious fanaticism during Japan’s brutal expansionism in the 1930’s and 40’s to today’s murderously militant Islamists……” -
@ Patrick
I’ve read an article online which seems like the one you were quoting from. This article also goes on to say how Brian Victoria’s stance has been criticized by some other Buddhists.
Mr. Kirchner argued that Mr. Victoria doesn’t offer a sufficiently textured picture of the religious landscape of wartime Japan. Other Buddhist sects and Japanese Christians also supported the war, along with the emperor-deifying religion of Shinto.
Japan’s largest Protestant group issued an apology in 1967. Why issue an apology if they didn’t commit a single crime?Napoleon’s personal attitude towards the Jews is not always clear, as he made a number of statements both in support and opposition to the Jewish people at various times. Historian Rabbi Berel Wein in “Triumph of Survival” states that Napoleon was primarily interested in seeing the Jews assimilate, rather than prosper as a separate community: “Napoleon’s outward tolerance and fairness toward Jews was actually based upon his grand plan to have them disappear entirely by means of total assimilation, intermarriage, and conversion.” This ambivalence can be found in some of his first definitively recorded utterances on this subject in connection with the question of the treatment of the Alsace Jews and their debtors raised in the Imperial Council on April 30, 1806. However can we simply conclude from Rabbi Berel Wein’s statement that Napoleon was as harsh to Jews as Hitler was? Anyone can make any statement, it doesn’t PROVE anything. We know Napoleon who killed thousands was simply a militant nationalist, not a religious fanatic.
Brian Victoria writes that many Japanese took blessings from Buddhist shrines, but many Christians took blessings from Churches as well, before going to war in Iraq. Victoria’s conclusion is lacking on account of two factors:
1) He’s not been able to provide a single instance of forced conversion to Buddhism. Even in Indonesia in riots some years back, Christians were forcibly converted to Islam. Why wouldn’t Japanese have a single forced conversion to Zen, if they fought a war for that reason?
2)There was no instance where non Buddhists were singled out for atrocities. Japan committed everything from rape, murder to sex slavery, but there wasn’t any partiality shown to Buddhists. Compare it to Osama’s stance where he justifies murders of non Muslims and regards all Muslims as his allies.When you say that quantitative analysis don’t matter, does that mean that we can put U.S.A. which has a few rabid fundies, on the same footing as Saudi where conversions out of Islam are legally executed and there are forced dress codes and driving ban on women? We know all nations have some bigots, but we regard Saudi as a much more fundamentalist nation than the United States simply due to the scale of atrocities and religious restrictions in Saudi.
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@Shloka – YAWN! I don’t suppose you have ever read about the criticism that Japan regularly receives from its neighboring countries (China, Korea, Philippines etc.,) because of its continued policy to either downplay the atrocities committed during WWII or simply not acknowledge them at all? The fact that leading Buddhist in Japan have finally admitted their role is a step in the right direction toward conflict management in the region. PEACE!
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@ Patrick,
I’ve recently read in history of Japan’s war atrocities which are simillar to Germany’s and so I’m very well aware of the horrific atrocities on Koreans, Filipinos and of course the Chinese. The wars were brutal, horrific and cruel. The reason they don’t come under the criterion of a “religious war” is as they didn’t involve suppression of the Catholic faith of the Phillipines,the form of religion which the Chinese practiced which was a mix of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism.
The following is how the Wikipedia defines religious wars:
A religious war is a war caused by religious differences. It can involve one state with an established religion against another state with a different religion or a different sect within the same religion, or a religiously motivated group attempting to spread its faith by violence, or to suppress another group because of its religious beliefs or practices. The Muslim Conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, and the Reconquista are frequently cited historical examples.
NOTE: Not one well known non monotheistic example.The Muslim concept of Jihad, or Holy War was set down in the 7th Century. Saint Augustine is credited as being the first to detail a “Just War” theory within Christianity, whereby war is justifiable on religious grounds. Saint Thomas Aquinas elaborated on these criteria and his writings were used by the Roman Catholic Church to regulate the actions of European countries.
Japan’s World War simply doesn’t fit into this category as it never attacked either a different form of Buddhism in China,the Muslims of Malay or the Catholics of Phillipines- it massacred its neighbours indiscriminately. The Muslim Conquests in India alone, according to some historians kiled more than the Holocaust, and numerous temples were destroyed. When the Pak army attacked Bangladesh in the 1970’s, they also destroyed Hindu temples. Yet, how many Phillipine Churches or Malay mosques were converted into Zen temples? Japan also neither spread its faith by violence anywhere, nor did it convert any territory into its form of Buddhism in its long list of crimes.Why only leave out a religious crime if you’re so driven by faith, after dojng every other crime?
The Wikipedia goes on to say:
Many wars that are not religious wars often still include elements of religion, such as priests blessing battleships. Differences in religion can further inflame a war being fought for other reasons. Historically, temples have been destroyed to weaken the morale of the opponent, even when the war itself is not being waged over religious ideals.
Many wars that are not religious wars often still include elements of religion is how we can define the Japanese being motivated by faiths. Their primary religion during wartime was Shinto-their emperor deifying faith. The Buddhist sects and Christianity were less prominent then, but they too supported war efforts as seen by their subsequent apologies(Why should the not guilty Christians apologise?). All three formed a part of Japanese identity just like the mythical “Aryan race” formed Germany’s identity. The late Pope has also apologised to Jews for historic anti Semitism, which like Japan’s apology is definitely a step in the right direction. However, neither the German Holocaust nor Japan’s war were for explicit religious reasons, so neither the Church is exactly culpable in Germany’s Holocaust, nor Zen Buddhism, which were minority faiths in war time Japan like Christianity in Japan, not even Japan’s state religion. Brian Victoria lays loads of culpability on religion, while Loftus lays a discriminate amount of culpability on the Catholic Church. Its also factual that Germany kiled more than Japan.Again “elements of religion” remind me, Bush a born again Christian says God told him to invade Iraq. Prominent Christian televangelist Anne Coulter says of non Christinas: “We should invade their nations, kill their leaders and convert them to Chtistianity.” Do we say George Bush is into a religious war now? Rape of Nanking religious, was the numerous women reped or kept as sex slaves by the British in India religious as well? The wars recently in Serbia and Kosovo between Orthodox Christians, Catholics and Muslims had far more expresedly religious elements than Japan’s imperialism.
These are pretty unfortunate tactics of some faiths, historic examples of religious wars are amply present in their Crusades, Inquisitions or Muslim Conquests so they’ll go all out to search for wars with even a minor religious element in others and bring them into the category of “religious wars.” Japan’s war murders are about the same or less than those killed by the British colonial masters in India, and the colonization of India had religious elements too- with missionaries clamoring to arrive in India to “save ” infidel souls. And dragging in Communism as an evil in non monotheistic nations into religious crimes, we know how hard the Late Pope worked to end Communism in Europe-was he fighting a religious war against another faith too? Sri Lankan Buddhist interference in Government, the Christian Right is as interfering and intolerant of non Judeo Christian faith in U.S.A. too. Neither U.S. nor Sri Lanka is a theocracy like Tehran.
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@ Patrick,
Since you’ve gone on so long on the Japanese war culpability, I thought I might put in a bit about German religious culpability.
German Christians constituted the strongest Protestant movement in Germany after the 1932 Church elections, with the aim of synthesising Christianity with the ideology of National Socialism. There were various groups within the Deutsche Christians, some more radical than others, but united in the goal of establishing a national socialist Protestantism. Deutsche Christen abolished the Jewish traditions, some but not all rejected the Old Testament altogether. They rejected academic theology as sterile and not populist enough and were often anti-Catholic. On November 1933, A Protestant mass rally of the Deutsche Christians, which brought together a record 20 000 persons, passed three resolutions:
• Adolf Hitler is the completion of the reformation,
• Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church
• The Old Testament is to be excluded from Sacred Scriptures.
Adolf Hitler converted to Protestantism and joined the German Christians, according to the National Secretary Klundt on April 25, 1933 in Königsberg, Eastern Prussia An official confirmation or denial was not issued by the Chancellor.Bishop Ludwig Müller (1883 – 1945 ) headed the German Christians which increased to about 600 000 members in the mid-thirties and won all Church elections since 1932. After his first meeting with Hitler he was convinced of his sense of divine responsibility. Note “divine responsibility”. Together with Hitler, he favoured a unified Reichskirche of Protestants and Catholics, a loose federation in form of a council, but subordinated to the National Socialist State.
I could very well say that the Nazi Germans, with the blessings of the Church, wiped out more people than all the monotheists in previous centuries couldn’t I, following your line of thought and looking at some Church participations?Also don’t forget, while Japan was a willing participant in the war, the Second World War was mostly Hitler’s War. He and his fellow Germans planned it, began it and ultimately lost it. But I won’t say that because I know that Germany like Japan attacked other nations indiscriminately and killed for national glory as their prime motivating factor. Religion was simply an added incitement to violence for some.
Here’s what a prominent Roman Catholic commentator, Andrew Sullivan has to say about wars of religion.
“This use of religion for extreme repression, and even terror, is not of course restricted to Islam. For most of its history, Christianity has had a worse record. From the Crusades to the Inquisition to the bloody religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, Europe saw far more blood spilled for religion’s sake than the Muslim world did. And given how expressly nonviolent the teachings of the Gospels are, the perversion of Christianity seems more extreme. It seems that there’s almost something in the character of monotheism which leads itself to such violence.”He says Gospels are more peaceful than the Koran, which is true but we know how belligerent the OT especially Deuteronomy is. Even this Conservative and devout Roman Catholic puts stress on monotheistic intolerance.
In any case, I don’t need to put the blame of World War ii on Christianity, simply as I don’t have a need to magnify any measly supporting role played by religion in conflicts relating primarily to other issues. Monotheistic religion has played the leading role in enough conflicts like the Crusades, Inquisitions, European Wars of the 16th and 17th centuries and the brutal Muslim conquests. Since there’re no such comparable Crusades between Buddhism and Confucianism, or Buddhism and Hinduism and since the Buddhists didn’t wipe out the Shinto faith of Japan cruelly, but happily co existed with it unlike Christianity whoch brutally wiped out and denigrated the Anglo Saxon and Greek faiths, you might have to rely on measly supporting roles played by non monotheistic faiths in imperialistic conflicts, and put nationalism inspired violence’s blame on religion.
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@ Shloka – Just because it’s done more subtlety in the East that doesn’t make any less insidious! Reminds me when I practiced Shorin-Ryu Okinowan Karate. Sensei never told us he was intertwining Karate with Buddhism. It is introduced without any talk of prosetelyizing the students. The more karate you learn the more Buddhism is involved with the instructions. Its very cleverly done and most student are unaware of what is happening to themselves as they do their meditations and breathing exercises. As your meditating sensei is telling the students that their are many paths to god. They tell you karate is used for peaceful purposes and self protection but as you start to learn about the various dojos and masters you become exposed to the intense rivalry and almost hatred schools have for different styles. Many students become deeply involved with the karate lifestyle and take up Buddhism more formally to grow closer to their sensei. Sensei will demand of his students absolute loyalty to the style, the dojo and to him. Its really a form of mind control. If you apply these same principles to Japanese soldiers during WWII you can easily see how Zen-Buddhism was used to make the soldiers to become more fanatical and to see their enemy as something to be destroyed without question or remorse. This explains why the Japanese atrocities were so brutal and hostile and even the Germans marveled at the Japanese ability to sadistically inflict pain & destruction upon their enemies. This is why the role of Zen-Buddhism cannot be so easily dismissed when discussing Japanese war crimes.
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@ Patrick,
Of course Karate has strong links to Buddhism, just like Yoga has to Hinduism. Thats’ because these martial arts and exercises were developed in those cultures that practices these faiths, and so they acquired a subtle religious tint. Here again you make a mistake between the Eastern and Western approaches to faith.
As a polytheist, for instance, I can be very impressed by Jesus’s story and keep His and Virgin Mary’s idols in my home, side by side with the older gods of my faith. That doesn’t make me an apostate in the eyes of my religion. Same with Buddhism. If you were indeed a Buddhist, there’s no harm in your worshipping Jesus as God while still remaining attached to Buddha’s teachings. Thats’ why the religion of China and Japan is called “syncretism” where the people worship a combination of Confucianism, Shintoism, Buddhism and Taoism, with local variations. Polytheistic gods or agnostic philosophies don’t seek to displace the older gods\esses or demote them to saints or worse, devils, they accept them as colleagues. The cult of the Egyptian goddess Isis thus spread what you’d call “insidiously” to as far as Spain and Portugal. That doesn’t mean in the slightest that people had to renounce their loyalty to the older gods\esses its just that they accepted her worship also. In Bali Hinduism never made people renounce their animism, Hindu gods and the animist faith is worshipped side by side.
Monotheistic God however, has different ideas. When he encounters a new territory, He tolerates no rivals as He is the sole propreitor of Truth. Thus the Greek polytheism was brutally suppressed, and the Holiest oak tree of the Anglo Saxon Pagans was ordered to be chopped off by Charlemagne. I’m sure the Ancient Greek wouldn’t have any objection if they were told to worship Jesus as God with their gods\esses nor would Hindus object in India if they were made to accept Allah as another deity. What monotheism wants is to completely sever all ties with one’s past faith, when new converts’ join and many are deeply loyal to their gods and reluctant to renounce them.
I read this online about a Karate Class which spreads the Gospels too:
On the cover of Bob Jones University’s Spring 1992 issue of the BJU Review is a picture of black belt karate master and senior at BJU, Jim Pitts, in full karate garb, Bible open, giving the “invitation,” while the rest of the members of BJU’s “Champions for Christ karate team” are kneeling in prayer by their cinder-block bricks. On the inside cover is a picture of Mr. Pitts breaking four bricks with his right arm, while the other team members are watching, with Bibles open. The editor of the Review declares that:“Champions for Christ is one of many different extension groups that go out from the University each week, bringing the Gospel to needy people throughout the Southeast. These extension ministries give all students the chance to sharpen their soulwinning skills, be an encouragement to others, and use their skills to glorify God.”
For all polytheists, its very possible to see God in Christ as well as his\her own faith and claim benefit from the spiritual heritage and timeless values of other faiths. Ditto for Confucianism, Buddhism and other Eastern faiths which have always taken this approach and syncretic worship has developed in them. So teaching Karate from a Buddhist perspective doesn’t in the slightest require you to renounce your god, just giving you the opportunity to enjoy and benefit from certain aspects of Buddhism, should you find benefits. However, since your faith is “exclusivist” I suggest you don’t go to those types of Buddhist classes, and stick to the type I copy pasted.
This approach can be illustrated thus. China has often traded with or faught with Korea and Japan(neighbours will fight). Yet while Confucianism and Buddhism has been introduced into those nations, there are absolutely no instances of forced conversions, rather Confucianism and Buddhism existed with the pre existing faiths, the past was never erased. Even today in Japan, a Shinto may visit his holy shrines, have a wedding at a Christian Church and a funeral at a Buddhist temple. Jesus Christ introduced some new stuff into Judaism, Gautam Buddha did the same with Hinduism. Yet while Jesus was crucified by the Jews, we Hindus worship Buddha as a god, with our other gods.
And again there’re no forced conversions of those groups who wanted to remain distinct.They were left completely untouched. Isn’t in ironical that the Jews who introduced to the world the concept of idolatry as sin were safest for millennia in two nations- China and India, which were for millennia two of the world’s richest nations and hardcore idolaters?They never found similar safety in monotheistic Muslim or Christian nations. Idolatry came to India with the Greek Alexander the Great’s armies, yet he never forcibly or insidiously converted anyone, although he killed, raped and pillaged. I think to believe that Alexander’s aims was to spread Greek idolatry into India is reading too much. The Vikings were another warlike people who rampaged over Europe, yet never converted anyone. Can we assume that they were vigorous proselytizers, in the corroborating absence of destructions of religious shrines and forced conversions?
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@ Patrick,
The Vikings case that I mentioned maybe somewhat different from Eastern cases, even Japan’s war efforts. The Vikings looted everything they came across including monks and monasteries. However, thry didn’t force anyone to accept their Norse paganism.
Some say that Vikings also might have aima to preserve their culture.
Viking expansion could also have originated as a means of resistance to forced Christianisation, in particular Charlemagne’s persecutions against all the Pagan people, who would’ve had to accept “conversion, or the massacre.”Snorri Sturluson in the saga of St. Olafr chapter 73, describes the brutal process of Christianisation in Norway: “…those who did not give up paganism were banished, with others he (St. Olafr) cut off their hands or their feet or extirpated their eyes, others he ordered hanged or decapitated, but did not leave unpunished any of those who did not want to serve God (…) he afflicted them with great punishments (…) He gave them clerks and instituted some in the districts.”
Monotheistic God wants to rout out polytheistic gods\esses and his followersapply themselves vigorously to the task. There’s was a definite war like streak in the Japanese warriors, yet in the complete absence of forced conversions or attacks in particular on a faith, its really nothing more than speculation if they indeed wanted to fight wars to spread the faith. The Asian countries beyond India and Indo-Malay after all never experienced monotheistic faiths sans Judaism until quite late in their history, and all these Eastern faiths are at least 2500+ years old, nor have these territories been bereft of brutal wars. But as these faiths have always chosen the tactic of “insidiously” introducing their faith to new lands rahter than with outright religious warfare, and not effaced all signs of the country’s original faith but allowed it to co exist, its really difficult to imagine that Japan would take a new step of forced conversions, especially as they didn’t forcefully convert anyone while raping, pillaging and murdering.
Your statement of a monk’s apology reminds me- the Roman Catholic Archbishop of France also apologised in 1997 for all the bishops of Vichy who had sent thousands ofJews to their deaths in Nazi Germany. Yet with all the nations involved in World War hungering for newer territories and colonies, it would be a big stretch of imagination to classify that World Wars as religious wars.
When Christmas comes, I celebrate it regularly, as does my school although its not a Christian institution. As Bangladeshi Hindu and later Indian Hindu children, I’ve always bought Christmas trees and decorated them, although my Muslim neighbours don’t. I celebrate Buddha’s birthday too. If you ever visit Indian homes in Kolkata, you’d be struck with how many homes have pictures of Mother Teresa. The Buddhists follow a similar approach to faith. As the concept of apostasy is completely absent, so is infidelity to other gods\esses. With the idea of there being different paths to the same God, we haven’t the simplest need to ridicule “Jesus” as a “false god”( unless our older gods are so called). If the students who take up Buddhism more seriously, they won’t be chided by their Buddhist priests for going to Church every Sunday as well. You confuse the “inclusivist” faiths with the “exclusivist” ones.
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@ Patrick,
Your opinion of Karate teaching involving Buddhism leading to to “insidiously” preaching Buddhism leads me to comment again! Oh my wretched tenacity!
As you’ve remembered your Karate classes, I remember watching many Hollywood movies. Hollywood movies and soaps are made in a majority Christian nation, U.S.A. and popular in many non Christian lands. Naturally elements of Christianity seeps in. I’ve seen countless Church weddings, Church services, Baptisms and Funerals in these. Some movies do have overtly religious themes, as for instance “The Ten Commandments”, “Ben Hur” and “The Passion of the Christ.” These movies are exported globally. Are these an “insidious” attempt at evangelizing? Indian soaps were very popular in Afghanistan. These tele soaps were like an indigenous version of “Sex and the city” and “Desperate Housewives.” They must have spread a lot of cheer in the otherwise humdrum lives of Afghan women. The Afghan Government banned them as they said it was a surreptious attempt to spread immorality and illicit sex in pious Afghanistan and convert Afghans to Hinduism. Go figure.
If its Karate now, what will you target next?Japanese Anime and Manga as examples of insidious conversion attempts?
And coming back to the alleged violence in Karate, were Western violent acts like duelling which were perfectly legal upto mid 19th century in most of Europe, a mechanism to spread violence? What about bear baiting? Bull Fighting? Or the Islamic and Jewish way of cruel animal sacrifices to God? And where is the evidence that Buddhist monks learnt Karate specifically to do Karate on defeated non Buddhists to compel them to convert on threat of physical harm? China’s numerous inventions include the gunpowder as well, was that developed to convert non Buddhists to Buddhism?
While you gave the Christian Catechism, I’ll quote te Dalai Lama on conversion: ” I generally feel that all major world religions have the potential to develop good human beings. Thats’ why I feel its best to follow one’s traditional religion, because by changing religions one may eventual encounter emotional difficulties. For example here in England the traditional religious culture is Christian, so it may be better for you to follow that.” Notice he or the Buddhist scriptures don’t utter a word about non believers going to Hell, nor does he include only the non monotheistic religions “for simplicity.”
You say many students take on Buddhism from Karate, although you were specifically told that all religions are paths to the same god. ( an oft repeated line by all non monotheists) Maybe those students were disillusioned by their ancestral religion in the first place? You officially mentioned my “conversion” twice so I felt you really intended to proselytize me,(probably I was mistaken in that) I didn’t infer that you wanted to convert me. You “inferred” Lairedion was a Hindu polytheist although he’s no such thing nor have Dewa and I made any overt or covert attempts to convert him. Now you infer things about Karate and it leading to violence. Many Western White converts to Islam blow themselves up in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill American troops, which convert to Buddhism in the West have done likewise? The U.S.A. has a large immigrant Hindu and Buddhist population, and quite a few converts to Buddhism, what violent streak or criminal statistics have they contributed to? They form a smaller part of the prison populations, compared to their total populatios. The West isn’t losing sleep over them.
I remember reading J.K. Rowling saying that some fundie Christian cults were alleging that her books were “insidious” attempts to proselytize to Wicca. In New York, a man told her that he’s praying to God for her soul. In the Middle Ages of course, countless hapless women and quite a few men lost their lives on the allegation that they were practicing the religion of”Satanism” devil worship or Wicca. Recently in Saudi, a few people have been legally executed for practicing the Wiccan faith. Why can’t you accept that not everyone has grand plans to convert all the world to their particular faith? Since Crusades, Inquisitions, conquests of foreign lands for conversions are completely absent, all you can do is possibly infer that an imperialistic war would’ve forced conversions, even though in that war itself there was every evil except forced conversions of the defeated. You conveniently called Lairedion a Hindu polytheist, although he doesn’t have any intention to convert to polytheism. Wrong inference!
I’ll end with the words of Dalai Lama, “Whether we like it or not, not all the world can be Muslim or Christian or Buddhist.” The rest of the world feels if others accept their gods good, but all are included in the “Plan of Salvation” anyway, so why bother? They feel they’ll join the good people of other faiths and the good atheists in Heaven.
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@ Shloka & friends – see you keeping proving my points! You never make any attempts to find common ground so that our long running argument has no chance to end or maybe better take a different turn. That would be interesting and this is just getting boring. Its not that I have nothing else to say but what would be the purpose?
P.s., the rumor mill says that St. Olaf has been resurrected and is on his way to India right now! : > ) By the way, give my best to the Indian computer network, w/o who’s assistance this all would not have been possible.
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@Patrick,
Whats’ your point?
You keep believing that non monotheistic faiths have been as intolerant in the absence of corresponding evidence. Absolutely no Crusades, Inquisitions, conquest of foreign lands with the aim of forced conversions! You say that “Some of the literature I’ve read suggest Japan had aims to transport their particular brand of Buddhism to foreign shores so it leaves the door open that the war was being partially driven for that purpose.” Japan has a long list of war crimes like spearing babies and some even mention cannibalism, yet there’s absolutely no evidence of replacing Churches or Mosques with Buddhist\Shinto temples, or forced conversions of the populace in any territory they’ve conquered.Nor did Japan even once call upon all Buddhists like Osama keeps referring to all Muslims’ to fight. Killing, raping, infanticide, cannibalism but zero forced conversions. I can believe and hope to prove that the U.S.A. is as fanatical and sexist as the Taliban but all evidence shows that the U.S.A. is overwhelmingly more tolerant and gender equal, and a few bigots don’t make the nation.
Humans have waged wars for millennia- ever since our ancestors the Cro Magnons killed off the remaining Neanderthals( although you believe the Adam Eve story maybe). The first global superpower was Ancient Egypt, whose sworn enemies were the Hittities yet the Egyptians never waged war on the Hittities on grounds of their faith. History offers no such evidence. While Greece and Rome often faught, they never faught over their respective faiths. To prove polytheisms as historically intolerant, I’ll have to manufacture new stories of Crusades and Conquests. Or maybe I’ll need to draft in a few lines into the non monotheistic texts which will henceforth require all non believers to be Hellbound, and converts to be put to death although such a statement is completely absent in those faiths’ literature.
The accusation of Karate practitioners converting “insidiously” reminds me again of Harry Potter books being accused of luring away children from Christianity to Wicca.
Conservative Christian reviewer Julie Foster writes: “The video documentary details numerous similarities between the spells and magic used by Harry Potter and those used in the witchcraft of the Wiccan religion. Such striking similarity, said Matrisciana, is evidence that the author has meticulously researched Wicca and included its tenets in her children’s books.” Ms. Matrisciana is quoted as saying: ‘Alarmingly, the Potter books are engaging in pagan discipleship, disciplining our children to spiritual alternatives and also turning them away from the biblical principles and God’s protection’…My greatest concern is that godly fear that protects mankind from dabbling in the spirit world is being taken away from children who read these Harry Potter books. The terrors and horrors of black magic and occult practice, rituals, ceremonies and demon possession are being normalized,” she said. “Alarmingly, the Potter books are engaging in pagan discipleship, disciplining our children to spiritual alternatives and also turning them away from the biblical principles and God’s protection.” Another baseless alarmist! :>)Maybe Karate is really a vehicle for Buddhist propaganda and the Potter series for Wiccan propaganda. Interesting is your use of “insidious” which also means harmful. If these faiths were indeed harmful- wouldn’t Hindu\Buddhist Bali have bombed Indonesia twice, rather than the other way round? Is U.S.A. perturbed by Hindu terrorists at present and are Hindus causing race riots in France? Hinduism exists in U.S.A. and France too.
After your comments, I think India, Thailand and Japan would do best to actually imitate the Islamic nations and ban all missionaries. Since Communist atrocities, nationalist atrocities, even martial arts originating from those lands are going to be put into the “intolerant faith” category, shouldn’t these nations be like practically all Muslim nations except Turkey and Indonesia, actually ban all missionaries and make leaving the faith a punishable offence? As well be punished for a crime you did rather than one you didn’t.
I’m very glad to be leaving this thread too, as school has reopened and I’m hard pressed for time. Since I like writing stories, I think I’ve hit upon a new story idea- thanks to you. It’ll be called “The Crusade between Greece and Rome” and it will deal with an entirely fictional account of a religious war involving Greece and Rome over whose gods\esses were actually true since both shared the same god\esses with differing names. It’ll give an account of capture of each others’ holy sites by Greeks\Romans and all names and incidents will entirely be a product of my imagination. I’ll also manufacture another story called “The Greek Reconquista” where the Greeks finally manage to shake off the Roman yoke and banish, kill and convert all Christians and call it the Great Hellenic Pagan Victory. Maybe a fictional Scandinavian Reconquista as well?
These “fictionalised accounts” accounts and “religious text redrafting” might after all give the argument a different turn, as these books will show polytheistic intolerance.
Bye Bye Patrick! Hope we devote out time to other pursuits. -
@ Patrick,
This is a copy paste from New York Times:
For some while in 2006, the vote on the nation’s defense budget was held up by a preposterous wrangle over the rights and duties of military chaplains. Now, a reluctant compromise has been reached, and the National Defense Authorization Act of 2007 has been passed in time for the House and Senate to leave town.The contested proposal had come from three conservative Republican House members: Todd Akin of Missouri, Randy Forbes of Virginia, and Walter Jones of North Carolina, all of whom wanted military chaplains to be able to specify the name of Jesus when offering prayers. They felt that nondenominational invocations were not enough, and that identifiably Christian views should be available from identifiably Christian pastors. At the very last moment, they agreed to withdraw this proposal (which was supported by Focus on the Family and other evangelical groups). But they did so in exchange for a deal, whereby the Air Force and Navy “guidelines” on religious expression are to be abrogated. This compromise is in many ways worse than the original proposal that sectarian observances be financed, in our armed forces, by public money.
To refresh your memory: The guidelines were imposed after the disclosure in 2004 of an atmosphere of religious coercion at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, Colo. It was asserted by staff members, alumni, and cadets of the academy that evangelical propagandists were harassing agnostic and Jewish cadets and insisting that only those who accepted Jesus as a personal savior were fit to serve. The deputy commander of the academy, who one might have thought would have more pressing duties in time of war, sent out e-mails proselytizing for a national day of (Christian) prayer. A chaplain named MeLinda Morton, who complained about this bizarre state of affairs, was abruptly transferred to a distant base in Japan. Rep. Steve Israel, a New York Democrat and member of the House armed services committee, was made aware of what was going on and managed to raise enough hell about it to get it—temporarily, as it now seems—stopped. (One can imagine the expressions on the faces of the Colorado Springs crusaders when they learned the name of this lawmaker.) Over the weekend, Rep. Israel said that while the latest compromise fell short of endorsing specifically denominational activity, it nonetheless reopened “old loopholes that permitted some acts of coercion and proselytizing.”
This is extremely interesting. Soldiers want identifiable Christian views from identifiable Christian pastors, and there’s evidence of harrassment and uncalled for proselytization in the American Air Forces. These chaplains are in Iraq to bless soldiers and we also know the atrocities in Abu Gharaib by American soldiers. Maybe someone could write a book called “Christians at War in Iraq.” However, the Iraq war remains an overtly non religious war to me.
I simply have no time or energy for another debate on this though. Fell free to believe my gods are false gods.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
@ Patrick
I haven’t yet had a chance to read all the previous posts after July 11, so probably Shloka has already rebutted all your nonsense about the links between Buddhism and militaristic atrocities. But anyway here are my final 2 cents.
The atrocities committed by Japanese forces, with Buddhist blessings!, in a few short years surpassed all the people murdered by monotheist in the name of religion for many centuries.
If you can’t come up with philosophic or religious Buddhist texts, teachings or practices that support or even condone the militarism and atrocious behaviour you assign to Buddhism you’d better spare your keyboard to trying impressing a less informed audience. Unless of course, like you did, you classify tai chi, kung fu and karate under Buddhist inspired militaristic atrocities. Looks to me as if someone is chasing his own tail.
This appeared in the NY Times a few years back (again non-Christian publication) and should put an end to any arguments about Buddhism’s involvement with atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers during WWII and the year leading up to it.
Some unknown self-appointed contributor succeeds in getting a statement published in a newspaper and this should put an end to any argument? You must be joking.
Conclusion:
It is a public secret that Christianity in the West is waning while interest in Eastern philosophies and religions like Buddhism, particularly Zen, is on the rise especially among intellectuals, so for sheer frustration bible-salesmen and Christian fanatics now have to recur to under-the-belt tactics in order to slander, defame and undermine this potential contender.I advise you to find some new proselytizing tricks because this one is already worn out. You have been wasting your time and ours too. Hasn’t it occur to you yet that you have become totally transparent?
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@ Dewa,
The West should outright ban all entertainment and sports which do not precisely conform to Christian standards. Just like even burping is banned on Saudi T.V., every mass media should be most carefully censored in the West. Many of them are mechanisms of “insidious” conversions, after all!
Church recommended exorcisms involving driving out devils for illnesses should be fully allowed, but psychiatrists recommending past life regressions should be jailed or hanged for heresy. Hypnosis should be declared a “sin” as devils can enter one’s body! Halloween should be banned and a punishable offence as its a pre Christian ritual. Evangelist Pat Robertson rightly calls it “Satanism”.It might lure some kids away from Christ!Anyone arriving for a vacation in Bali and deciding to go in for a “Ramayana” dance performance should lose the citizenship of their nation at once!
The rest of the world doesn’t openly proselytize like Muslims and Christians do but we know how full of temptations the “false” gods and religions are. Haven’t you read how frequently Monotheistic God forbids worshipping others and killing those who worship others? Go read those texts again!
In the Middle Ages, it was the witches with their devil worship, today matters are far worse. All other faiths are “insidiously” converting! Beware of everything around you!!!
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@ Shloka – you wrote ” Finally, had you said that you look down on me and don’t want to “include” my country India, “for simplicity” in the category of nations which have contributed positively in the world as you’ll only include white nations, I could call you a “racist” and your attitude would only get you derision.You won’t be spared had you said feeling contempt towards non whites is an essential part of belonging to the White race.”
I said this? This is news to me and I better hope my little Brown Indonesian wife never finds out, if I did? Because, if I did she would definitely beat me with a stick. ha ha ha! Kamu gila sekali!
@ Shloka you said “uncalled for proselytization in the American Air Forces.”
When I served in the military years ago I don’t think I ever saw a chaplain around us except about 2 or 3 occasions and that was during a 3 year period. My how things have changed? Yep I am aware of this incident and it is a disservice to all non-Protestant Christians in the Air Force. No argument from me. Same with Abu
@Shloka you said ” Japan’s World War simply doesn’t fit into this category as it never attacked either a different form of Buddhism in China,the Muslims of Malay or the Catholics of Phillipines- it massacred its neighbours indiscriminately.
Thats right Shloka the Japanese soldiers, sailors and airmen being indoctrinated with Zen Buddhism blindly killed everyone it perceived to be the enemy. The enemy was defined as being a foreigner not indoctrinated with Zen Buddhism.I did not see any need to convert but only exterminate with the blessings of the Buddhist monks ! Conversions and the preading of the faith, if you will, was being planned for once the Empire had been carved out.
Shloka sais “When the Caholic Spanish conquered the Moorish territories, they banish, killed or forcibly converted thousands of Muslims’ and Jews.”
Isn’t a bit more correct to say when the Catholic Spanish recaptured (or reconquered) their land and drove out the Moorish invaders etc. Forced conversions were the norm during this period in many countries and by different religions. And before you get all bent out of shape consider in your country that St. Thomas was martyred for his beliefs!
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@ Dewarat – Good to see you made it back after licking your wounds from our last encounter. :>)
Dewarat says ” haven’t yet had a chance to read all the previous posts after July 11, so probably Shloka has already rebutted all your nonsense about the links between Buddhism and militaristic atrocities. But anyway here are my final 2 cents.”Below are some excerpts from a review written by Allan M. Jalon commenting on a book review of “Zen War Stories”. You don’t have to apologize as you should learn to keep an open mind about matters you seem to know very little about. Also you will notice in this account the Buddhist were indeed proselytizing (see 2nd paragraph below).
“…The Myoshin-ji statement, first issued on Sept. 27, 2001, for example, was expanded in a major religious newspaper in Japan in September 2002. The initial statement said that the conflict between America and an anti-American jihad made it important to remember ”that in the past our nation, under the banner of Holy War, initiated a conflict that led to great suffering.”
The more detailed version apologized for helping to lend a religious purpose to invasions, colonization and the former empire’s destruction of ”20 million precious lives.” The self-critical account also described how Myoshin-ji members followed Japanese invaders across Asia, ”established branch headquarters and missions” in conquered areas, even ”conducted fund-raising drives to purchase military aircraft.”
Two other Zen groups—the Tenryu-ji temple and the Sanbo-kyodan foundation—and several individual Zen leaders have also issued apologies after receiving Mrs. Buitendijk’s letter for war-time complicity, which have appeared in Buddhist publications in Europe and the United States…..”
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@ Patrick,
Heard of the beautiful Anglican hymn, “I vow to thee my country?” Its sung by couples in churches and was requested by Princess Diana at her wedding.
Composed by Cecil Spring Rice in 1914, it was also a British imerialistic anthem. My grandfather saw British soldiers singing it on their marches, and these British soldiers would give us Browns a good whacking just FOR entering te same train compartment.
Thats’ why it invokes painful memories for many priests, just like it World War ii does for certain Japanese priests.For the Bishop of Hulme, the interpretation in this case is painfully clear.
“It actually says we’re going to support my country whatever it says, entire and whole and perfect, the love unquestioned, which is in the first verse of the hymn, right or wrong,” he told John.
“That, I’m afraid, is actually heretical because it actually says that my country’s approach to things must be my first call on myself and that my relationship with God or what I believe to be right or wrong is secondary to that.”
“It’s saying my country right or wrong,” he continued. “I don’t think anybody could actually say they could adopt an approach whereby they said they would not ask any questions of their government and their policies and so on.”
So this immensely popular hymn, sung by the imperialistic colonial masters, could’ve contributed to British racism and violence, with the Church’s support right?
Again, coming back to my point on Iraq, you maybe aware that NOT a single WMD was found in Iraq. Even the Vietnam war was for flimsy reasons. Yet the largest support base for the Iraq War came from the U.S.A. Evangelical base. As my article cut out proves, the Evangelist organizations in U.S.A. were supporting some questionable tactics as well.
As for sending missionaries, after the fall of Taliban, you maybe aware that Korean missionaries had rushed headlong to Afghanistan, and 42 Korean missionaries were held hostage in Afghanistan, who wanted Bush to negotiate for their freedom.
After a little stretching the information available, its definitely possible to prove that the British world wide imperialism, which lost more lives than 20 million, although over a far longer course, were helped by hymns like, “I vow to thee my country” can’t it? It can even be shown how Christian Evangelical and Bush attitudes to faith, not to mention missionaries in Afghanistan were all with an underlying Christian missionary point?
As for being indoctrinated blindly, the religious composition in Japan today is similar to the U.S.A. today. In U.S., the main religion is Christianity(census reports), followed by non believers, then Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus, in that order. In then Japan, main religion by far was Shinto, followed by Zen Buddhism a second and Christianity a third.
The reason I mention chaplains was that, much of these Zen Buddhists acted like those. There were Chaplains on Hitler’s side too, and I’ve written about the Deutche Protestants attitude to Hitler’s war before. There is a underlying religious attitude in every war, because men and women need faith in those perilous times. Chaplains of the Muslim faith are administering to Muslim soldiers in U.S.A. too. It happened with Japan, the Shintos were looked after by the Shinto faith, Buddhists by the Buddhist and the Christians by the Christian faith.
Thats’ why the article which you repeatedly cite and which I’ve read goes on to say that all faiths supported the war effort, including the Christians, and both these minority religions of Japan at that time have apologized. The largest Protestant denomination apologized in 1967, as I’ve stated.
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@Shloka – Big Yawn!!! Is that your friends in India could come up with? Same old same old and nothing new. What was said to you awhile back? Oh ya!
Pakmantri Says:
July 4th, 2008 at 2:27 am@shloka
There is an old Indonesian saying, “Semut diseberang lautan tampak, gajah dipelupuk mata tak tampak” (In English, “you can see an ant across the ocean, but fail to see the elephant right in front of you”).
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@ Patrick,
What did Pakmantri say that was so distinct? Namely because India has problems’ of its own( which it does like every nation) we should not put the blame on Islam too much. Brilliant stuff! So as Bali has problems’ like sex tourism, its’ justified to bomb it twice and destroy precious lives and the economy right?
Or as U.S.A. has problems with Christian fundies like that braekaway Mormon ranch in Texas or David Koresh, its perfectly allright to cause 9\11 right? Perfect idea. As every nation has problems, we should focus on them (this bit is true) and ignore the death to innocents’ caused by Muslims?
And I have no permanent problem with either Islam or Pakistan. I don’t want to have a Hindu Reconquista there like the Spanish reconquista. If those Muslims’ stop killing innocent civilians’ tomorrow, they’re perfectly entitled to their faith!
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Shloka said:
Shloka, usually I’m not the kind of guy to give compliments easily (I only did it once here on IM to Bli Dewa) but I must say I’m really impressed with your dedication, focus and extensive knowledge, keeping in mind you’re only 18 years old. When I was that age I only cared for babes, soccer and booze in no particularly order. 🙂
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments, I thoroughly enjoy them.