Religion & Religiosity
Jun 16th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer
Rima says religion and religiosity are to blame for much of Indonesia’s, and the world’s, troubles.
Why religion doesn’t matter at all
Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold; there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts; there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami; there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and; there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
302 Comments on “Religion & Religiosity”
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Shloka says:
@ Patrick,
Which monotheistic God do you exactly want to convert me to? Some, rather many well known Christian scholars aren’t exactly gung ho about Islam, you see. Here, I give you some such comments:
PAT ROBERTSON
Robertson has blasted the religion of Islam during a 1995 taping of The 700 Club, he called the religion a “Christian heresy.”On September 19, 2002 episode of FOX News Channel’s Hannity and Colmes, Robertson claimed that the Muslim Prophet Muhammad, was “an absolute wild-eyed fanatic … a robber and a brigand.” On the July 14, 2005 broadcast of the The 700 Club, he claimed that “Islam, at its core, teaches violence.” On the March 13, 2006 broadcast of The 700 Club Robertson stated that Muslims want global domination and that the outpouring of rage elicited by cartoon drawings of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad “just shows the kind of people we’re dealing with. These people are crazed fanatics, and I want to say it now: I believe it’s motivated by demonic power. It is Satanic and it’s time we recognize what we’re dealing with.” He finished by stating “by the way, Islam is not a religion of peace.”ANNE COULTER
Anne Coulter suggested that Islam is “a car-burning cult,” and wrote that Muslims have “a predilection for violence.” She also felt Jews, “need to be perfected” by accepting Jesus.JERRY FALWELL
“Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses,” Falwell says. “I think Muhammad set an opposite example.”FRANKLIN GRAHAM
Franklin Graham, Billy Graham’s son also called Islam “a very evil and wicked religion”And the Pope sends greetings to Hindus too, during Hindu festivals. His comments infuriated some Muslims’ while his converting Magdi Alllan shows that monotheisms want to convert one to different versions of the same form of God, further muddling things for potential converts like me.Muslims, too were delighted when Italy’s ambassador to Saudi converted to Islam, but LEGALLY kills converts to Christianity.
But lets’ look at the Bible:
JOHN 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Titus 3:5a
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His
mercy He saved us”
Book of John
“He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not
is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the
only begotten Son of God.”
Matthew:18:3
“And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as
little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Excepting John, others seem to agree that one Creator is enough. But John says believing in Son of God is essential. By that yardstick, Jews who don’t accept Jesus and Muslims, who don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God is out of Heaven. But perhaps the Catholic Catechism over rules this, which I’ll accept.
But what about non believers? Isn’t it unfair that not believing is as big a crime as killing? The polytheistic god\esses are small ,often petty but they didn’t punish non believers. Shouldn’t an Almighty monotheistic God be large hearted enough to accept those who don’t believe and why would it make a difference to Him if one little human among billions, in a tiny planet couldn’t believe? Disbelief is the third largest faith group after Christianity and Islam and many disbelievers are very decent people, who just don’t deserve to be condemned. Anyway, by being polytheistic or agnostic, I’ll at least meet great scientists like four times Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling( an atheist), Paul Dirac(atheist) one of my great heroines Madame Curie( an agnost). Pascal said its better to believe just to escape Hell, but these scientists didn’t believe and openly admitted it. Anyway if these atheists did PRETEND, wouldn’t God see through the hypocrisy? As far as idolatry, idols of pregnant mother goddesses found in caves were 25000 years old. I’d rather believe in a more loving Creator who’d forgive non believers and not mind if humans were trying to somehow convey their love and devotion to Him through idols.
P.S.Zen Buddhism, you raised a good point about it being exported to territories. But as it didn’t hapen, we can only speculate. Buddhism is a pretty old faith began2600 years ago, and in its history of spread over India, China or South East Asia there simply isn’t evidence of religious wars or forced conversions of large territories.
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Patrick says:
@Shloka – I think my statement about you converting was more wishful thinking than anything serious. However, I will do my best to answer your fully loaded question thats bound to have future consequences for me from some on this thread. : > )
My current situation is that I was raised Catholic and still believe in what the Church stands for but I don’t presently attend church. In other words I believe in a monotheistic God made up of a Holy Trinity and that concept is a mystery that has not yet been revealed to us by God. This can be a confusing thought and perhaps the great St. Patrick said it best as he successfully explained the trinity to my Polytheistic ancestors by holding up a single shamrock and showing that is one plant but with three distinct leaves. Jesus is the centerpiece of Catholicism He was sent to earth by the Father and was born a man. He preached to the people about the Kingdom of heaven and how to worship God, gain the kingdom of heaven and to love each other. He was crucified for our sins (humanity) and three days later rose from the dead. Jesus named Peter as his rock and therefore he is the first Pope of the Church and all popes can directly trace their lineage to Peter. The Church was initially aimed at converting the Jews but it was Paul, after a vision of Christ and Heaven, who convinces the apostles that “good news” of the Resurrection is meant for all peoples of the earth. St. Thomas went to India and converted a small amount of the population (Thomasine Christians) and they still exist 2000 years later as you no doubt are aware.
Believe it or not I am not a huge fan of Islam. I do believe that the Koran is a compilation of the new testament and the old testament and then mixed in with some Christian heresies of the day and old wives tales form the Jewish Talmud. The daily prayers being said 5x per day is taken from the Jewish Pharisees who were known to be living in Saudi Arabia during Mohammed’s time. The Koran claims that Islam is the third and final religion succeeding from Judaism and Christianity. However, Islam rejects Jesus as God so to me that would be one example of inconsistent teaching if it truly believes it succeeded Christianity. On the other hand Islam teaches that it descends directly from Abraham and believes in a Monotheistic God and the same God of the Jews and Christians. We also have to respect what God promised to Hagar the Egyptian who bore Ishmael the father of the Arab race. (see earlier posted quote). I have many Islamic friends and I think for the most part they truly believe their religion is a religion of peace but that the concept of Jihad is presently being used by small groups of very militant Muslims for their own political ambitions. Again, I think Islam needs reform to update itself to the realities of the 21st century. Lairedeon was right to point out that the government of Saudi Arabia export of Whabbism is a major problem in the world and it needs to be addressed very soon before it becomes rooted in generally peaceful Islamic societies thus turning them increasingly militant and less tolerant of other faiths.
You mention some of the Protestant Evangelist and their statements concerning Islam. Firstly, Protestantism is considered heresy by the Church as there teaching sometimes conflict with the Catholic Church on important matters. ie., Mary being an intercessor for the people of God, The Holy Eucharist, Infallibility of the Pope on Dogma, the interpetation of the “Book of Revelations” etc. However, they share in the divine plan as believers in the Creator and the trinity. I believe that the people you mentioned see from the news a large amount of violence in the Islamic World and that includes 911, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the rioting in Paris by Muslim youths, the violent protests concerning the Danish cartoons of Mohamed, and the killing of a Dutch film maker who made a documentary that was not very flattering to Islam. Many people then draw the conclusion that Islamic is not only dangerous but it appears to be very reactionary to anyone who presents them in a critical way. Islam seems to fear scrutiny from outsiders as if there is some secret that needs to stay hidden or the whole religion will collapse. Honestly, this sends chills up an down the spines of many westerners and the Protestant Evangelist are often experts at playing to those fears.
As for what religion you or anyone else should choose? That should be your own choice as you can exercise your free will that God gave you to make your own decision. Just remember this saying “God has a few that the church does not! And the Church has a few that God does not! : > )
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@ Patrick,
Wow! Beautifully written and explained. I guess I’ll now try to explain my relation with polytheism after which we’ll hopefully abandon this lengthy discussion together. You see, God maybe one indeed and as you say Jesus maybe sent by Him to Earth to save mankind. Yet, even 2000 years later, more than two third of the Earth’s population don’t accept Him as Son of God and many Christians especially of wealthy nations are abandoning faith for skepticism. Had God indeed wished all the world to get the message, surely He could have written a few words in (say) blood across the sky, barring which of course humans don’t have solid proof. And as God didn’t really give proof to inquiring minds, and the scientists I mentioned who rejected religion did so as their minds only believe things based on evidence, wouldn’t it be grossly unfair on the part of a loving God to cast them into Hellfire if they otherwise led blameless lives? After all these same scientists believe in gravity not because they want to, but as four centuries of physics experiments have proved it to be so. If new facts disproving it came to light, it would be abandoned in an instant.
I believe although we haven’t seen God there’s an innate desire of humans to wonder how they came about and a wish to continue after their mortal bodies perish, so they began thinking about God. Indeed, the Earth is actually billions of years old and humans have been around for a couple of million years. The earliest humans, whose concerns undoubtedly widely differed from ours also yearned for a maker, and they worshipped pregnant mother goddesses and animals, and pregnant mother goddess would reflect the spiritual needs of a hunter gatherer community who faced devastating infant mortality. Then settled societies in Egypt, Mesopotemia, India and elsewhere began worshipping natural phenomenon which benefited them. For instance river Nile gave water or floods to Egyptians so they made it a god. Of course, later Egyptians invented monotheism and religious beliefs of a slight majority of Earthlings changed forever with it and its more famous descendants-Christianity and Islam. So there seemed to be a movement from polytheism to monotheism in most places. Athesim has grown from 2% to 14% in the 20th century, and not just due to Communism so maybe we’ll see another change?
Even in your own explanation when you mentioned Trinity, you might be aware that some Christian sects and Islam call it idolatry and polytheism and denounce it. When the last Pope was shot, he said he’d been saved due to “Our lady of Fatima.” Why not Our Lady of Lourdes or Knock? Thats’ exactly how Hindus worship. When we pray before a God\ess, we think of the All powerful being but the image helps us to better focus. We try to grasp the sublime(God) through the concrete(image) just like the Pope thought of not just any Our Lady but specifically Our Lady of Fatima, when he believed Mary was His intercessor to the Almighty Lord.
Then you called Islam inconsistent with Christianity and even the Protestant Church was considered heretic by the Catholic Church. As a huge buff of ancient civilizations, I know that the Romans and the Greeks worshipped almost the same gods\esses with different names. However, while Greece-Rome fought bloody wars, they never fought over whose versions of God was heretic. The Norse Pagans( present Nordic nations) and the Sami further North followed similar Gods but didn’t end up slaughtering each other over who was heretical. As the Egyptian Book of the Dead shows, the pagans often shared the same moral values as monotheists, but the pagan gods\esses weren’t jealous of neighbouring Mesopotemian or Hittite gods or forbid their worship on pain of death. China’s one child norm has produced a generation of “Little Emperors” where only children become spoilt, selfish and unable to share. A similar thing seems to happen to the concept of God when its reduced from many to one(pun intended);-)
My point is of course, there are different spiritual needs of different humans. Some may satisfy it byworshipping one God they can’t see at all, some may worship a Trinity, some may worship many gods\esses and some may abandon this whole thing for lack of evidence. An Almighty God if He\She indeed intended everyone to worship Him\Her in a particular way, could’ve easily appeared personally, or willed that everyone would be converted to that way. As he hasn’t we can only assume that He\She either doesn’t exist or is fine with humans differing in worship. Isn’t it unfair on His part to condemn non believers or polytheists to Hell having given no proof of his existence? One God from many gods\esses should’ve been more magnanimous, instead he becomes more egomaniacal, “jealous” ( His words in Ten Commandments) of the simplest idol constructed by his creation.
The Koran(2:190) says “Idolatry is worse than carnage.” Say one of your long ago Celtic ancestresses led a blameless life and sincerely believed that gods\esses resembling her idols existed in heaven. Is she truly more evil than 9\11 hijacker Mohammed Atta because she worshipped an image? In India there’s a religion which began around Buddhism’s time- Jainism. This religion’s founder Mahavira denied God’s existence and it still exists in substantial numbers in India today( Polytheists Hindus didn’t persecute it). This atheist faith has many good morals – teaches non violence to all sentient beings including the smalest ant and must have inspired goodness as the world and India isn’t faced with Jain terrorists like Muslim terrorists. Should a all just God condemn the atheists of this faith to Hell or hold them inferior to Muslims’ only since they didn’t worship One God and come from Abraham’s lineage? THATS’ MY COMPLAIN.
In the end -Cheers to Freedom of religion (which is not denied in even one word in all the scriptures of non monotheistic faiths) and just as importantly Cheers to Freedom from religion for everyone including the secret non believers of Muslim theocracies! And may God if He\She\It\They exist, not mind our divergent ways of worship, or lack of it!:-)
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@ Shloka – You are correct as I did not address the issue of non-believing scientist. Here is a link to a NY Times article the addresses the issue of faith and science. Also, I have included a list of Nobel Laureate winners who believed in the concept of God.
NY TIMES ARTICLE
Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and ScienceArticle Tools Sponsored By
By CORNELIA DEAN
Published: August 23, 2005LIST OF NOBEL LAUREATE WINNERS WHO BELIEVED IN GOD
Albert Einstein Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Max Planck Nobel Laureate in Physics Protestant
Erwin Schrodinger Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic
Werner Heisenberg Nobel Laureate in Physics Lutheran
Robert Millikan Nobel Laureate in Physics probably Congregationalist
Charles Hard Townes Nobel Laureate in Physics United Church of Christ (raised Baptist)
Arthur Schawlow Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William D. Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics Methodist
William H. Bragg Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Guglielmo Marconi Nobel Laureate in Physics Catholic and Anglican
Arthur Compton Nobel Laureate in Physics Presbyterian
Arno Penzias Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Nevill Mott Nobel Laureate in Physics Anglican
Isidor Isaac Rabi Nobel Laureate in Physics Jewish
Abdus Salam Nobel Laureate in Physics Muslim
Antony Hewish Nobel Laureate in Physics Christian (denomination?)
Joseph H. Taylor, Jr. Nobel Laureate in Physics Quaker
Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
John Eccles Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Joseph Murray Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Catholic
Ernst Chain Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
George Wald Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Jewish
Ronald Ross Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology Christian (denomination?)
Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Christian (denomination?)
Christian Anfinsen Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Walter Kohn Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Jewish
Richard Smalley Nobel Laureate in Chemistry -
Janma says:
LIST OF NOBEL LAUREATE WINNERS WHO BELIEVED IN GOD
meaning?
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@ Shloka – 1st I will take the easiest question you presented. You said “When the last Pope was shot, he said he’d been saved due to “Our lady of Fatima.” Why not Our Lady of Lourdes or Knock?”
My answer; Many apparitions concerning Mary (Mother of Jesus) have occurred over the centuries and the locations help distinguish one from another. The reason Pope John Paul II said he was saved by Our Lady of Fatima is that in the 3rd secret she revealed many years before she described a time when a pope would be shot. Pope John Paul was shot on the Feast Day of Fatima in Rome on May 13, 1981.
@Shloka – The next argument that you present is much more difficult because of the complex meaning of a jealous God. You said “China’s one child norm has produced a generation of “Little Emperors” where only children become spoiled, selfish and unable to share. A similar thing seems to happen to the concept of God when its reduced from many to one(pun intended);-)
Bible language experts have concluded that the word jealousy translated has the same meaning as zealous. In other words God is fervent about protecting what is precious to Him. God compares the special relationship he has with the Israelites as that of a bride and groom. “And I will betroth you to Me forever” (Hosea 2:19). Just as a man should rightly expect that his wife give him exclusive devotion and affection, God expects the same from His people. When they worship other gods then they violate the sanctity of the marriage and God is then just to become jealous and angry. This is the same rightful jealousy a husband would have if he suddenly discovered his wife was seeing other men. What it is not is the type of jealousy that is unprovoked and used to submit and domineer another person against their will. That would be a sinful or unjust jealousy and God by His nature is incapable of sin.
God, rightfully considers Himself, sovereign and supreme overall. He will not share his position with other gods for to do so would be elevating these gods to His position and authority and that would be also contrary to God’s true nature.
“I am the LORD, that is my name;
I will not give my glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images (Isaiah 42:8).”I will address your other questions tomorrow as it is late here. Thanks!
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@ Patrick,
Thanks for that link. There are indeed many Nobel Prize winners who believe, yet in the 20th century, a majority of winners don’t.This is a fact, just check out all winners and their faith. Anyways, my aim in mentioning non believers wasn’t to claim that religion is foolish as Nobel Prize winners disbelieve in it, just to say that there are plenty of good, intelligent men and women who’ve led productive, industrious lives without belief in God. Take four times Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling, for instance. He was married to one woman for life and raised four kids. No personal and professional scandals. Should God judge him harshly for his lack of belief? While Werner Heisenberg of your list remained Lutheran, Pauling became atheist and left his Lutheran faith. Is that reason enough for God to condemn him to Hellfire?Or one of the world’s richest men-Warren Buffet, who’s an atheist. He’s donated billions to charity, and without any hopes of converting anyone or going to heaven. If it turns out that he was wrong about God, does he deserve to burn in Hell and not be saved? Should Madame Curie be less precious to God as an agnostic than a devout woman simply for her lack of surety about God?
You said that the first question would be easy to answer, and there have been many visions of Mary. But there have been similar visions not only of Hindu Gods but also Sufi saints.Say, today I have a vision that Tom Cruise is in love with me-fans have had similar visions you know, but I’d be termed delusional. What makes a Catholic’s vision of Mary superior to say a Mahayana Buddhists’ vision of Siddhartha Gautama? If Mary could appear to a Catholic peasant girl or even a group of the devout in a vision in obscure places, why doesn’t she simply appear in the Euro 2008 Final to lay all doubts to rest? Barring this-a Catholic’s vision of Mary and an Ancient Greek’s vision of Zeus cannot be put on different planes.The Dalai Lama’s of Tibet are chosen based on visions too.What makes a Catholic’s vision anymore trustworthy to me than a Tibetan’s vision is to you?
Then you say that when Jews or others worship “other gods” God is zealous, not jealous. In your first post on Egypt, you’d called those “false gods.” So I can conclude that other gods don’t exist, at least acording to the monotheistic worldview. How can you compare non existant gods with a husband and wife relationship? Isn’t worshipping a non existant God similar to adultery with a non existant partner?If a husband discovers that his wife is “seeing” a non existant man, or believes that she’s in love with a man who has no existance outside her imagination, he’d be concerned for her sanity rather than jealous right, if he was indeed a loving husband. He’d probably take her to a shrink. If that was the case with Yahweh, he would have told the Jews that its “insane” to worship other gods rather than use the term “jealous”.
Further, in Deutereonomy 13:7-11 God takes His jealousy a bit too far. In Deuteronomy 13:1 God explicitly says,” Whatever I’m noew commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.” so right at the beginning, a symbolic reading is prohibited by God Himself. Then in Deuteronomy 13:7-11 God says that if your siblings, best friend or wife tells you to worship other gods, you must kill them straight away by your own hands, and show no mercy. If a husband were to be “zealous” and kill his wife for infidelity, most countries would punish him for murder, except a few Islamic nations wher honor killings of unfaithful wives are condoned by law.Is God akin to the feudal lord and master of Saudi Arabia’s neighbour Jordan, who can dispose of his faithless wife at will and the law’s on his side? In America, the husband would be shown no mercy. Why then is such jealousy or “zealous” attitude of God condoned? Further, a wife has full proof of her husband’s existence by her five senses, the only proof of God is His book and there are similar books around in the Jews time like the “egyptian Book of the Dead” making similar claims, so in the circumstances, shouldn’t God be even more gracious?
Then again, if God were indeed jealous, He sent te message a bit late to Jews just 3000+ years ago. Despite what the Bible may say to the contrary, geological and archaeological research indicates that the Earth is billions of years old, and humans have existed for thousands of years. God should’ve sent the message to cavemen of thousands of years ago, when they were worshipping fertility goddesses and useful animals. For example, the famous Venus of Willendorf statue of a pregnat Mother Goddess was made from sandstone 24000 years ago. Why didn’t God express His jealousy for 20000 years and let humans worship as they pleased?Taking your analogy isn’t it strange if a cuckolded husband( if that’s how God felt), having expressed little jealousy for his wife’s paramours for forty years of their married life, suddenly expects himself to be the sole recepient of her sexual and emotional affections? The wife would be very perplexed, and would imagine that her husband’s condoning her affair for decades was proof of his consent.
There’s a fundamental difference between a husband-wife or a parent-child relationship with a God-devotee relationship. In the first two relationships we can see, hear, talk, touch those we’re related to, and others could do the same. So if someone declared our living parent or spouse didn’t exist, he\she would be considered insane. However, we cannot touch, see, hear or talk to god although a few did make claims they could. So we think up how God would be like. A majority of people of the world believe that God has authored a book, unfortunately there are way too many such books at hand, and the monotheistc faiths at least make claims that their’s the only correct book. However, te books of the three monotheistic faiths contradict each other wildly, and the three fought and still fight bitterly over which unproved book is authentic. There are two sites on the Net currently, Answering Islam and Answering Christianity, each wildly differing and accusing each other. The Koran seems to approve of wife beating after repeatedly correcting a disobedient wife and the Shariah(Muslim law) requires amputations for theft, although today’s human rights absolutely condemn amputations. If God were indeed “zealous” wouldn’t He step in to remove erronous books written in His name, as much as worry about whether people were mistakenly imagining images to be Him?
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@ Patrick,
I’ve written a post on why the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the instructions contained therein were in all probability older. This is accepted by many archaeologists and if you have and contradicting proof, I’d be very glad to hear of it. Its in page 6 of this thread, as you’d posted on page 7 about colonialism, maybe you’d missed that post. You could also check out Hammurabi’s code, the most powerful King of the first Babylonian period.
Hammurabi(reigned c.1792-1750 B.C.) wrote what is described as the world’s first Law Code. Even He claimed that the Code was delivered to him by Sun God Shamash, and this code bears striking resemblance to Mosaic Law, except of course, the harsh penalties for worshipping other gods was absent in this code. Hammurabi’s code is later than the Egyptian beliefs of afterlife so the Mosaic law and the Code maybe contemporaries and there might’ve been cross pollination between them.Again the claim that the authors of the OT got the text wrong put the date of Exodus around 1500 B.C. at the time of expulsion of the Hyskos from Egypt, and get support for this view from writings of JosephusThey claim the Pharoah was TuthmosesIII, Amhose I, AmhotepII or Ramesses III, all of whom come later than Hammurabi, which would put even Hammurabi’s code earlier.
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Pakmantri says:
Yawn!!! Still at it eh people????
To me this thread should have stopped at timdog’s comment dated June 19th. The comments after that were just the prove of how right timdog was.
It is “us and them”, faiths, believe, religions, race, or theism are just tools or means.@shloka
There is an old Indonesian saying, “Semut diseberang lautan tampak, gajah dipelupuk mata tak tampak” (In English, “you can see an ant across the ocean, but fail to see the elephant right in front of you”).
Do search on: encounter killings, dowry killings, or Air India flight 182 …….Everybody made mistakes or do wrongs along the way, shouldn’t we just learned from them and not do them again and move on?
Anyway,
as long as “us” is not we human being from all shape, form and color or all believe, faith and race; and “them” are not those funny looking aliens from the galaxy far-far away there won’t be peace on this earth.Back to sleep, bye everyone.
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@Shloka for me Janma summed up this discussion very succiently when she wrote way back:
“I love the story of Julian of Norwich a woman who in England in the 14th century, after falling ill, was subject to visions about God and eventually became an anchorite in the monastery of St Julian of Norwich. She was a very compassionate woman, and found it hard to reconcile a revelation she had in which God asserts that unbelievers and the like will be cast into hell. In her consternation she demands an explanation from God, but all he will say is “All will be well, All will be well, All manner of things will be well”. (She is famous for this quote)”
This is what she wrote;
“And I wondered greatly at this revelation, and considered our faith, wondering as follows: our faith is grounded in God’s word, and it is part of our faith that we should believe that God’s word will be kept in all things; and one point of our faith is that many shall be damned,–And given all this, I thought it impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time. And I received no other answer in showing from our Lord God but this: “What is impossible to you is not impossible to me. I shall keep my word in all things and I shall make all things well.””Maybe we should have quit then? : > ) Hope it answers all your questions and you can sleep better? Really though good luck to you and it has been a pleasure!
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@ Pakmantri,
Actually all this is in response to Patrick’s hopes or as he later put it, wishful thinking of converting me! This has turned out to be an “evangelizing” thread, you see- but hopefully I’ll quit after this post.I sincerely want to quit. Anyways my posts about ancient Egyptians, Romans etc was simply me showing off my knowledge of ancient history, rather than belittling faiths!
@ Patrick,
I’d be extremely glad for you to try to “convert” me, but before I take my pick of the various monotheisms’ around with their various denominations and exclusivist claims, I need to have my doubts laid to rest. Anyways, you’ve full liberty to ridicule Hindu gods or other polytheist beliefs, I won’t grudge you your freedom of speech either. Ditto for Dewa’s stance on some monotheistic faiths!
From your own statements, I gather two possibilities about polytheistic gods\esses vis a vis Monotheistic God:
1) Polytheistic gods don’t exist at all, from your first post about Egypt and they’re “false gods.” In that case, worshipping false gods\esses is as good or as bad as killing an imaginary person, robbing an imaginary bank or hacking an imaginary software. If you kill an imaginary person today, the cops won’t be after you nor will the family of the bereaved be shedding tears as the person has no existence outside of your imagination.
2) Monotheistic God keeps referring to polytheistic gods as “other gods”- like don’t have any other gods before me, kill your loved ones if they worship other gods, burn down towns which worship other gods and similar statements. In that case, these other gods do exist and are this God’s colleagues, or at any rate this God feels they exist and he wants all the attention to Himself, as He’s a self centred guy. So why should I stop worshipping other gods if they exist, and are powerful enough to make this God jealous?
In the first circumstance of worshipping imaginary gods\esses, there’s no harm and no good- yet Courts have been devoted and in some nations are still existing to catch and execute those worshipping “other gods.” Thousands accused of this meaningless exercise have been brutally killed. Can you imagine the waste of time, resources and lives if courts were established to try those accused of murdering “imaginary” people?
In the second circumstance, if other gods indeed exist and one god suddenly becomes jealous of his colleagues, that simply isn’t reason enough to quit worshipping others! Rather we should be more devoted to others as they’re willing to share and co operate! The English word “jealous” comes from the Greek “zelos”- one of whose meanings is indeed jealousy.
Again, referring to your husband wife analogy, yes a husband would want his wife’s attentions exclusively to himself, although he has no rights to murder her if she does otherwise.In any case a loving spouse should stick to the dictum “if you love something let it go. If it comes back, it belongs to you, if it doesn’t it wasn’t yours in the first place.” And God as the most loving of all should NEVER advise killing of deviants. Yet the husband would want his wife to love him as he is, right? In Judaism, they find the concept of Jesus being a Messiah and Son of God unbelievable and say Jesus was just one among many Jewish blokes of His time who considered Himself the promised Messiah! Christians of course accept Jesus as the Sun of God but there lies significant differences between Catholics and Protestants on key theological issues. Next comes Islam and it claims that Jesus wasn’t crucified at al-he was simply another Prophet and Mohammed is the last and greatest prophet.Of course if you like to continue in the 19th century Joseph Smith starts another faith\Christian denomination and gets a new text from angel Moroni. How would a husband like it if his wife loved him in three different avatars- A Thai Buddhist husband in his thirties, an American WASP husband in his fifties or an Irish Catholic husband in his twenties? Methinks he would find it as offensive as adultery. Does monotheism’s God suffer from Split Personality Syndrome?
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@ Patrick,
Actually I’ve greatly enjoyed this lengthy debate too, and sure learnt many new stuff- like- Ireland’s colonialism which, well read though I consider myself (I’m boasting again!) I scarcely knew about. Pardon me if I’m wrong but I feel that a Brown or East Asian would’ve suffered more simply for the “color consciousness” of those days.In India for instance, public places and trains had boards saying, “Strictly for Whites” and “Indians and dogs not allowed.” And the Black’s situation was extremely pitiful,undoubtedly the worst of the lot. I fully agree with your belief of letting go of past atrocities and focussing on the present English who’re a friendly, nice lot. All this is strictly non religious discussion, right?
As for the Julian of Norwich tale- yes its one of the loveliest I’ve ever come across in any denomination. Yet even in this tale, God has plans of eternal damnation for many, and only some flimsy statements of “all will be well.” And as this woman hasn’t even been canonized by the Catholic Church although she remains an important figure, and the Catechism explicitly refers to acknowledging a Creator and One true God, so I guess Catechism and many, many Biblical lines override this woman’s universalist vision.
Sorry I’m not keen on converting after all. Maybe better luck with someone else?;->)
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@ Shloka – In the immortal words of Rhett Bytler (played by Clark Gable) “FRANKLY MY DEAR, I DON’T GIVE A DAMN” : > )
@ Lairedeon and Shloka – about my wishing earlier to convert Shloka was meant to be facetious. The sort of thought one has if he is on a sports team and looks across the field at a tenacious player for the opposing team and who gives 100% in every match and effectively disrupts the flow of the game. Your thought is, wouldn’t it be nice to have that player on our team so that we would not have to be deal with them? Its just wishful thinking and not serious! OK get on with your lives!
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@ Patrick,
Oooh! So we’re into Rhett Butler’s words now. Rhett’s my favorite ever literary hero, and Gone with the Wind my favorite book of all time.I’ve seen the movie a zillion times! I think Rhett’s the most fantastic guy ever conceived in literature- much much better than that staid and stuck up Brit aristocrat Mr Darcy. Mention Rhett and everything’s fine between us. :>)
By the way, your knowledge of polytheistic and Hindu gods is bang on- many are indeed available in animal form- yet as there’s no prohibition from those gods\esses on either worshipping other gods of the same or different faiths nor orders of putting non believers to death or burning them in Hell I think its a bit off the mark to call them gods with an inferiority complex or god of inferiority complex. The monotheistic God which requires killing of those worshipping others or burns atheists in hellfire seems to be The God of Inferiority Complex, and making matters worse, he apparently suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder(MPD)- telling different things to Jews, Christians, Muslims and Mormons.
If you ever get the time or the inclination, do read up on Egyptian Goddess Isis- according to Pulitzer prize winner Will Durant and other scholars, the images of Isis nursing baby Horus might’ve inspired Christian Mary images. All this is not to belittle any faith\s just sharing knowledge.Superstitions aren’t reduced from polytheism to monotheism they just get concentrated in One God so even if you have no faith in those gods , they make interesting reading like the epics of Illiad and Oddyssey .
FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED: Since quite a few have shown interest in my studies, my results are out. I’ve done quite decently, and came third in my class. School will start in a few days, so I’ll drastically reduce my posting.
You get on with your life too, Patrick. Great pleasure talking to you. :>)
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dewaratugedeanom says:
If a polytheistic culture is able to bring about young prodigies like Shloka there must be something good in it.
Kudos and thanks for sharing your knowledge. -
Dewarat says: “f a polytheistic culture is able to bring about young prodigies like Shloka there must be something good in it.”
MMMMMMM? I am not sure that I would be bragging about Shloka being a prodigy? The reasons:
1. She was caught plagerizing whole passages on this thread and the editor removed her posting. (go back & see for yourself).
2. When she was called out for appearing sympathetic to the killers of a missionary and his 2 young sons she did what she usually does when she is caught and that is to make excuses and then to fire off several long self indulgent comments in an attempt to change the subject and bury the story. (Go back & see for yourself)
3. Shloka on several occasions attempted to dehumanize Islamic people and had to be rebuked a few times as she definitely crossed the lines of decency. What I found most peculiar was that not one Polytheist on this thread ever criticized her when it was warranted for her bad behavior?
4. Her idea of a serious discussion is to overwhelm the opposition with long rambling postings of every tidbit of information she can find on a subject and the to present it as if its an established fact worth of serious merit. Then to enhance her strategy she will question anything and everything and really who the hell has time for all her bullsh*t? And several different people on this thread have rebuked Shocka for this very reason.
Anyway, as I said before she is tenacious but if she is what good about polytheism then we monotheist should be worried because her views are often scary!
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@ Patrick,
1)Did I claim that that piece about Pope Pius was my own Patrick? You’ve posted quite a few copy pastes yourself. The moderator removes very big pieces regardless of whether they are personally written or copy pasted and so that one was removed, I’ve copy pasted a piece from BBC which was short like your pieces, so it wasn’t removed. Incidentally you didn’t condemn that act of Christian terrorism either, but I don’t grudge you that.Please show me where I’ve claimed to write that bit myself? Was there a “written by Shloka” at the end?
2)Again you claim I was sympathetic to the murderers of the missionary although I didn’t say a single word to that effect. I wrote right after it that it should be condemned. Incidentally it was a Christian and a man of cloth apparently- Rev. Spitz who had read my piece about abortion bombers, and instead of the slightest sympathy to nurses and doctors who lost life and limbs and who have families to feed and care for, started off a prayer to Christ and called all those who support abortions cowards.(which I somewhat agree) Not one WORD of sympathy to the dead doctors. I can very well claim that he supports murders and mutilations of grown men and women who’re doing a legal job , can’t I, extending your logic?
3) Yes I’m not the biggest fan of Islam and I’ve expressed that. However, I’ve at least given Islam the status of a faith. You’ve called agnostic faiths like Buddhism a “philosophy” attributed atrocities committed by anti religion Communist regimes to Buddhism and called polytheistic gods “false”, thus insulting millions who believe in those gods\esses- like Shintos, Wiccans, Hindus, Neopagans. Have I criticised Islam anywhere as rudely as some of the American Christian evangelists I wrote about? Please re read that post containing their statements again. Coulter, Graham and their cronies cross the line of decency more than me.Incidentally, how many polytheists are on this thread?I’ve been criticized by Muslims and atheists and I respect their views. Anyways freedom of belief and expression is a very fundamental right and I fully support your right to monotheistic superiority and others’ right to feel differently. We all have a right to think and write as we like, including your extremely foul mouthed Christian evangelists like Robertson and Falwell.
4 You say I give every titbit of information I find, don’t you do the exact same thing? Every bit of information about Communist regimes, 19th century Burma are available from you. And just like me, you’ve been criticized by many on this thread too, who differ with your views. AND making matters worse, you do something else I don’t. I DO NOT narrate stories of extremely dubious historicity from the Hindu epics or Buddhist Tripitakas and claim that its remembered in “history” for proving such and such.If I give information on anything which you feel lacks merit- I challenge you to disprove their historicity. It doesn’t come from my religious books like your statements, its something well accepted by historians and recorded in historical and contemporary documents. You seemed to have ample time Patrick for that bulls*** and I not once called your Biblical quotes bulls*** I had time for your online missionary efforts too, but didn’t receive satisfactory answers from you.
Monotheists should be worried about my views?
Lets’ look at two of the worst terrorist attacks on U.S. soil recently. In 1995, Tim Mc Veigh wanted revenge for David Koresh’s Waco ranch raids. He bombed Oklahoma City killing 167 people. David Koresh’s Branch Davidians was a Christian fundie cult. And you know very well about September 11, 2001, done by Muslim fundies. Which attack was by polytheists or Buddhist agnostics, Patrick?
Yes we’re tenacious( your own statement), we even listen to online missionary efforts but we didn’t bomb various Western nations, we argue with words and show our historical knowledge rather than our mythological knowledge.
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@ Patrick,
Questioning “anything and everything” came from your Catholic Catechism. The catechism apparently accepts those who accept a Creator, which contradicts with John 3:16, that requires believers to accept Christ as Son of God( this means Muslims and Jews in Hellfire). My point again went back to the monotheist God with that. Polytheistic gods or Agnostc Buddhism neither MANDATE belief nor worship, which is another important distinction between the two belief systems. Nowhere does the non monotheistic belief systems, in their extensive theological writings claim that non believers or believers in other gods\esses are doomed to burn in Hell.
RECOMMENDED READING: Jonathan Kirsch’s “God against gods: Monotheism’s war on polytheism.” Again if you happen to read it, this man gives an extensive bibliography, just not religious myths as “history”.
Another important reason I brought in atheists was to show that there are many extremely erudite men and women who don’t accept the existence of a God. They use certain arguments against a God, and since my “bits of information” are extensively recorded everywhere you might check out on the Net why Paul Dirac or Steven Weinberg don’t believe in God at all. The very same arguments which can be used against the existence of many gods\esses can be used against the existence of One God. Alternately the very same arguments which can be used SUPPORTING the existence of One God can be used supporting the existence of many gods. Companies like Microsoft, Google were all founded due to the efforts and intelligence of a group of software engineers and technologists. What is the evidence that the universe isn’t also the result of a teamwork between many creators? Again evidence as in scientific, historical, geological, archaeological anything will do, just plain Bible thumping won’t.And Gnostics and Mormons feel that the Creator God was created by an even bigger God. Evidence against that? Mormonism founder Joseph Smith also received a revelation from One God. Strange no?
Incidentally, when I questioned the Exodus’s historicity, I mentioned prominent archaeologists including Jewish archaeologists, who deny the whole thing as well as Conservative and Reform Rabbis who call Moses “myth”. You can google them up. You mention some flimsy bit about archaeologists, no mentioning of their names or exactly what they’ve unearthed. The ONLY THING you mention in the greatest detail is Bible quotations, and as more than two thirds of the Earth isn’t Christian and many aren’t Bible literalists, if I don’t accept them as authentic facts, you get offended.
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@ Patrick,
Here’s what Einstein had to say about the Bible in one statement.
Einstein: Nothing ‘chosen’ about the Jews, Bible ‘childish’ legendsEXTRACTS:
By Bradley Burston, HaaretzEinstein said he saw nothing “chosen” about the Jews, and that they were no better than other peoples “….
“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish,” the letter was quoted as saying. “No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”
The letter, written in German in January, 1954 to philosopher Eric Gutkind, is to be auctioned in London on Thursday, the paper said. ….
In other statements, he seemed to support religion and the existence of some sort of God, however. But since he too called the Bible “primitive legends” and “pretty childish” and further said that no subtle interpretation can change this for him, I douby how convincing even he would find your account of the Exodus.
Again with my “tenaciousness” praised by you, I’m quoting with sources, which you can check.
Here’s what not me, but you say about the Koran. “Believe it or not I am not a huge fan of Islam. I do believe that the Koran is a compilation of the new testament and the old testament and then mixed in with some Christian heresies of the day and old wives tales form the Jewish Talmud. The daily prayers being said 5x per day is taken from the Jewish Pharisees who were known to be living in Saudi Arabia during Mohammed’s time.” Extremely polite, huh?
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@Shloka thank you for proving my points from my previous posting!
I believe you have 3 lengthy post since?@ Rima you owe me for pushing the right buttons to drive this topic (200 and counting) into the top 10 all-time. Congratulations!
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Lairedion says:
Rima you owe me for pushing the right buttons to drive this topic (200 and counting) into the top 10 all-time. Congratulations!
She owes you nothing. Anyone can stir up discussions by repeating the same crap over and over again. That’s what you guys hear in Friday Mosques and Sunday Services.
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@ Patrick,
You didn’t need to prove my tenacity at all… I accepted that I’m tenacious in my first post. Just like I don’t need to prove you’re Irish Catholic, you’ve said so yourself. Tenacious means persistent, retentive or stubbornly holding onto a point of view. I believe being persistent and retentive are compliments so I thanked you. As for stubbornly holding onto a point of view, I was willing to debate and even gave a patient ear to your missionary efforts, but do you sincerely believe that you’ll “prove” polytheistic gods are conclusively defeated by giving the ahistorical Exodus myth (and saying as how that event is forever remembered in “history”)? What are you going to give examples from next? Noah’s Ark as an authentic example of a historical natural calamity? This story of Noah’s Ark is also stolen from the Epic of Gilgamesh, a Sumerian legend of the 3rd century B.C., where Utnapishtim escaped a flood sent by polytheistic gods.
By the way, no one rebuked me or you, some agreed with my point of view and some with yours. “Rebuke” reminds me of American influential evangelist Jerry Falwell who said 9\11 was a “divine rebuke” to the “pagans, abortionists, feminists and wiccans.”
Talks of divine rebuke in the 21st century? Do you guys seriously believe spewing such bulls*** will win you immediate converts? Your namesake Pat Robertson warned parents in Dover who had selected Darwinism over Creationism to not pray to god”should a calamity hit Dover, as you just drove Him out”By the way, your namesake Robertson disagrees with your theory of Muslims’ too being descendants of Abraham and in the same team. Look what he says “When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?’ the media challenged me. `You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?’ My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'” –from Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,” page 218.
“If anybody understood what Hindus really believe, there would be no doubt that they have no business administering government policies in a country that favors freedom and equality. … Can you imagine having the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini as defense minister, or Mahatma Gandhi as minister of health, education, and welfare? The Hindu and Buddhist idea of karma and the Muslim idea of kismet, or fate condemn the poor and the disabled to their suffering. … It’s the will of Allah. These beliefs are nothing but abject fatalism, and they would devastate the social gains this nation has made if they were ever put into practice.” –Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,” page 219.
So this guy, who not only evangelizes on IM like you but to the larger world, emphatically feels that Judeo Christians are different from Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists and lumps us together.
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The Utnapishtim’s myth is from 3rd millennium B.C., not 3rd century. Sorry.
If monotheistic arguments were simply enough to win over new converts, why did the Christians need to suppress the Hellenic religion so brutally in Greece, and why did Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) need to smash all the idols of Mecca?There’s an eerie similarity between the 4th century Christians who destroyed the Serapeum, the most beautiful pagan temple in Greece and the 21st century Muslims who destroyed the Taliban.With my well known “tenacity”, I have for you a site where a certain Brother Andrew puts forth loads of material to prove why Muslims are NOT Abraham’s descendants.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-arabs-descendants-of-ishmael.htm
Robertson publicly put Jews and Christians together, but privately I wonder what He feels about Jews. Billy Graham after all said to President Nixon that the “Jewish stranglehold” on the American media is “ruining the nation.” Robertson, privately might be as antagonistic to Jews. Poor monotheistic God with his Multiple Personality Syndrome causes so much confusion in the minds of His followers.I’ve written a lot of posts, but I believe I’ve some new material in each of them. Plato( fifth century B.C., a product of a polytheistic culture and recognized world wide for his genius) said, “The wise speak because they have something to say, the fool because they have to say something.” Your comment on Ghandi led another commentator on this thread Mirax to suggest that you must be a good few years younger than me and so content free. Just check out her commet. If you’re 12 or thereabout, I’m sorry for bothering you so and I hope Santa and Easter Bunny still bring you lovely presents. What the heck were you doing on threads like FGM then?
However, if you aren’t you still have little to fear from us polytheists physically. Intellectually, perhaps you need to sharpen your skills. Is the stupid quotations of Robertson, Falwell and other Christian apologists in America the reason the Christian % dropped from 86% to 77% between 1991 to 2001?
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@ Shloka – It is said that “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” and after reading your recent post I guess its true! By the way, do be kind and turn off the lights when your done ranting and raving like a lunatic. Thanks!
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If hell can’t dish up fury worse than sloka’s then it needs a makeover….
c’mon patrick, she has not done anything but defend her position, and well I might add, no name calling, no personal insults….. what’s up? you sound like someone who has lost the argument. -
@Janma – There is nothing new coming. This is just summer re-runs and bloody boring at that! As far as “no name calling, no personal insults etc., when was the last time you had your reading comprehension tested? Sorry I am not taking the baited trap today. As far as losing, what was lost? Oh you mean when it was proven Eastern religion were behind some historical atrocities? Maybe tomorrow I will debate Shloka or anyone else but lets try to limit it to one short succinct posting at a time. Quality over quantity is always preferred. Thanks!
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Cukurungan says:
Anyone can stir up discussions by repeating the same crap over and over again. That’s what you guys hear in Friday Mosques
The crap has been proven to score that crime rate; murder rate, suicide rate, divorce rate, abortion rate and rape rate in Muslim majority countries are quite less than in non-Muslim majority countries.
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@ Patrick,
“Eastern Religion” behind some historic atrocities? Oh you mean expressedly Anti religion Communist regimes which’ve directed their atrocities mostly for the suppression of Eastern religions?
Or nationalism inspired wars by Japan? You’ve read that the Zen Buddhist monks wanted to transport their particular brand of Buddhism to their newly conquered nations, but the war didn’t go the way Japan wanted. Even in the short time that Japan and Germany carried out their atrocities, Germany tortured Jews specifically, while Japan raped and butchered their way through Muslim Indo-Malaysia or Buddhist China indiscriminately, killing raping and doing every evil possible except forced conversions to Zen Buddhism, or persecutions of a particular faith group like Nazis persecuted Judaism. I absolutely condemn those, but maybe you’ll still feel I support Japan’s atrocities with your twisted logic. The Japanese were inspired by nationalism, the glory and power of their nation was what they hoped for. Was the American war on Vietnam with the hope of converting the Vietnamese to Christianity, or was it against Communism? You seem to pretty much confuse crimes done in the name of race, religion or gender and lump them together into religion.Had Buddhism been a violent, forcibly proselytizing faith, you wouldn’t need to hunt half as hard as “whether” the Zen Buddhists indeed wanted to transport their faith to foreign shores, had they won a war. Buddhism is 600 years older than Christianity, and at one time extended from Afghanistan to Japan( Afghanistan and Pakistan were converted to Islam). Surely, had there been examples, you’d have gotten them in those 2500 years, just like the Christians and Muslims’ left behind examples of jiziya taxes, iconoclasm, Crusades, Inquisitions, yellow badges for Jews in Muslim Baghdad and Nazi Germany for millennia before any World Wars. Buddhist nations in the far East have had battles and conquered each other too, just like England has fought with neighbouring Ireland. While you yourself know of the way the English tried to impose their Protestant faith onto Catholic Irelanders, when in history has Myanmar tried to impose its version of Buddhism on Bhutan, or Korea tried to impose its version of Buddhism on Japan? No such historical examples. Nada, zilch.
Just as many, if not more, people seemed to have “rebuked” you or more correctly differed with your opinion too, but thats’ fine as everyone is entitled to their views.
When you wanted( or wishfully thought) to convert me to some version of the monotheistic faiths, you glibly stated, “How can we convert you to the monotheistic faiths Shloka? You’d have made an awesome convert.” You praised what I had to say about the Egyptian Book of the Dead.On being told by Janma that if you want to sell monotheism you should have some convincing arguments, you said “Thats why we need someone like Shloka.” Then when I didn’t want to convert after all you said,
“Who has time for her bulls***”Rather nice to see your turnaround. You seem the one “scorned” in your proselytization efforts, not me!
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Rather nice to see your turnaround. You seem the one “scorned” in your proselytization efforts, not me!
The monkey has come out of the sleeve. And what an ugly beast!
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Shloka – Actually I brought this up again because after re-reading Kinch I decided that his comments may be incorrect concerning Zen Buddhism and I wanted to erase any doubts to the contrary. (Besides if he is bored there are other places he can go right?). Some of the writings that I have read do say that the Zen Buddhist did have plans to export their particular brand of Buddhism to the new Japanese territories they captured so it leaves the door open that the war was being driven at least partly for that reason.
I am Irish born so you don’t have to tell me about the evils of colonialism. Our small Island nation was the only forcibly colonized country in Europe and we faced horrible English aggression for about 8 centuries and we fought them bitterly at times to send them packing but mostly we suffered at their hands. The great novelist Leon Uris once said of the British “They are some of the most wonderful, kind. and humane people on the planet except when it comes to the Irish as they treat them as sub-human”. My father lived as a boy on a poor farm and he would tell us stories of the British Black & Tan (newly released prisoners from English & Scottish jails conscripted into the Army) troops that would often come by their farm house and take all the food leaving my grandparents with nothing to feed their children. I say this with pride, my relatives fought them bravely and believe me the English often tried to forcibly convert the Irish from Catholicism but were largely unsuccessful. Today, if you asked me, I would say I mainly like English (usually extremely nice & humorous) people as those things happened in the past and at some point we have to move on or get stuck in a bad pattern of bitterness and sometimes violence. Well if you want to keep discussing things fire away as it is a great learning experience. : > )