Religion & Religiosity
Jun 16th, 2008, in Opinion, by Guest Writer
Rima says religion and religiosity are to blame for much of Indonesia’s, and the world’s, troubles.
Why religion doesn’t matter at all
Once upon a time, Indonesia was well-known in the world as a nation of peace, tolerance and religious pluralism. Other countries even made us their example, a country full of people with various religious beliefs, from various ethnic and language background, people who live side by side in harmony.
Indonesia was and even more now, a very religious country, where the people live and breathe religion. It doesn’t matter what religion a person is, as long as it’s one of the six official religions. While it is unheard of in developed countries, in Indonesia identity cards bear not only name, address and sex, but also religion. Thus, religion is a must in the country of 240+ million people.
I still remember as a little girl, my Christian neighbors would come to our house in Eidl Fitr to celebrate our Ramadan victory with us, and vice versa, we would come to their houses to celebrate Christmas with them. Back then, we were not suspicious with one another, we were all like one big happy family, with real problems, none of which originated from religion. Those were good times.
I also remember being taught that religious people, specifically Muslims, go to heaven (if they’re good) and others do not. As kids, our schools taught us communism equals atheism and therefore very, very bad. This is deeply embedded in our minds which is why many Indonesians feel somewhat afraid or even disgusted towards communists and atheists.
As a little Muslim girl, at home and in Madrasah, I was taught that Jews were our enemy, never mind the fact that the Koran says otherwise. Christians weren’t mentioned, as it was politically incorrect to address them as our enemies back then. Besides, the President was close with the Christian community as well as the Muslims, making it a point that we were brothers and sisters who must fight the latent danger of communism and atheism.
Back then, I thought religious people like my dad, with his Peci, white shirt and sarong, reading the Holy Koran and doing the daily 5 obligatory prayers, Friday prayers plus the sunnahs like Dhuha and Tahajud; Or neighbors that go to church every Sunday and have bible studies once or twice a week, were perfect. Maybe they were, then. Living without a religion was something unthinkable, and most certainly a life that would doom a person to hell.
Fast forward several decades, things have changed. Not for the better, but for the worse. Now, the country is becoming more religious than ever, but tolerance is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Suspicion of Christian evangelism, for example, is rampant everywhere in the country with ridiculous accusations of lures of instant noodle to make one convert. Not only that, even sects within Islam are now attacked, despite sharing the same God and the same Holy Book.
Many of us are not obeying the law but instead take matters into our own hands. We are bypassing God as the only rightful entity to judge and condone or condemn anyone. Attacks and burning down of churches, places of worship and even mosques of different Islamic faith from Indonesia’s mainstream Islamic brand make many feel threatened to continue living in this tropical paradise. The government is weak and caves in to terrorist demands. A real shame that would make our founding fathers turn in their graves.
However, as we are growing more religious, good morals seems to have declined. There is no more shame in bribery, in prostituting the country by selling its resources to the so-called ‘infidels’ for big money while the country is short of the resources sold; there is no more shame in adultery, in human rights violations, in cheating the poor; there is no more shame in flaunting riches in front those who don’t have enough money to buy a decent meal, in attacking people for having different beliefs, in condoning immoral and violent acts; there is no more shame in oppressing ethnic and religious minority, in stealing funds intended to help those struck with earthquake/tsunami; there is no more shame in not being polite, in offending our brothers and sisters of different beliefs, of displaying behavior and attitude suitable for the middle ages, and; there is no more shame in abandoning victims of a disaster as a result of one’s greedy attempt to rich themselves, in any immoral acts in the interest of one’s self or group, being a bigot, racist and being discriminative.
We are instead fixated in pornography, women’s dress codes, dangdut singers’ dance and internet as if those are the only things in the world that could and would corrupt the moral of our future generation. We aren’t even ashamed of the fact that we are in the top 10 of most corrupt countries in the world, as if money is our new God, yet we are, without a doubt, one of the most religious nations in the world.
As I see all those above and more so-called religious people fighting with one another. Where one feels more self-righteous than the other and worse, hurting and killing people in the name of God, a God – if It exists at all – who would most likely shed a tear in sadness and frustration at all this, my opinion and feeling towards religions have changed 180 degrees.
I now strongly believe that religions are the culprit of all hurt and heartaches the people of this world has endured in the past, present and future. I believe it’s nothing but poison to the human mind. It limits our thinking, promotes hatred and violence and it tries to control us with threats of hell and lure us into doing evil things with promises of heaven. The day I know what religion God believes in, is the day I will once again believe in a religion. But until then, all the points above are the reasons why I think religion doesn’t matter at all.
302 Comments on “Religion & Religiosity”
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kinch says:
I’m getting more than a bit bored with this topic and wish everybody would go get a life. However, just to set the record straight: Buddhism had very little to do with anything during pre-defeat Showa Japan where State Shinto was by far the dominant religion. As an example, Soka Gakkai (not necessarily anything good about this sect) members had a very hard time during this period.
In any case, most Japanese are only ‘Buddhist’ where death and funerals are concerned. Same pertains to the vast majority of Chinese. In East Asia Buddhism has a certain talismanic value in that it is superior juju for sending ghosts and spirits packing. Not a lot of Zen-like contemplation going down – except in small isolated pockets.
It might amuse me to blah at length on why certain sad cases in the West project all their post-Christian neuroses onto an idealised Buddhism which doesn’t exist anywhere I’ve ever been in Asia – but we’ll leave that one for another day.
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PS: Shloka – you’re certainly mature and erudite for your age, but now might be a good time to put a subcontinental sock in it. Just regarding this topic, of course. I’m sure we’ll appreciate your input on many other topics.
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Shloka says:
@ kinch,
Actually I’m bored as well, I’d love to quit this topic. Quite apart from Buddhism-Shintoism, very prosperous societies are religious only regarding births and funerals. The Nordic nations and France have half or a majority of births out of wedlock( which is perfectly allright, a personal choice according to me) and a large proportion of non believers but are still nominally Christian.
And human nature is such that, in order to justify one’s adoption of a new faith, one’s often extremely critical of one’s ex faith, and conjures an idealized version of the new faith. Take Taliban captive turned Muslimah Yvonne Ridley, whom some say is a victim of Stockholm Syndrome. Today she describes the Koran as a “magna carta for women”, dons the hijab as she prefers to be known for her intellect rather than her looks, and “hates those ghastly beauty pageants.” Not only ex Christians, ex Muslims like Nonie Darwaish too is at times baselessly critical.
Oops, I got sucked in again! I’ll keep away now, I’ll realy try.
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Any coward who supports abortion has the blood of babies on their hands.
SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life.
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Patrick says:
@Shloka -If you read Paul’s Letter to the Romans in the New Testament Bible it will reveal why Christians feel the way that they do toward Polytheistic gods and worshipers. You can read it as an educational experience and I will do the same for some of the Hindu literature suggested by Lairedeon. As far as the Jews are concerned they would be compelled to feel the same way toward Polytheistic gods and you can read Exodus in the old Testament of the Bible for verification as well as the Ten Commandments.
However please note as Christians we are supposed to respect and love all people regardless of what they believe or not believe. Whether we do that every time is the question? But that is what we are commanded by Jesus to do.
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:36-40).
Anyway, Kinch is probably right and that’s it for me on this topic and you may have the last word! Peace!
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@ Patrick,
The Ten Commandments bears striking similarity to the Egyptian Book of the Dead.This is significantly older to the 10 Commandments. Again I’m quoting a polytheist faith:
“I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone’s suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child’s mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage…
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God’s property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions.”
One vital difference is that the Egyptians weren’t punished by God for worshipping any other Gods, say the contemporary Mesopotemian Gods( Mesopotemia and Egypt were trading partners for millennia, had a fair idea of each others’ ideas and gods\esses) and Yahweh commanded Jews to only worship Him. In Deuteronomy, He goes as far as to ask Jews to kill their spouse or child should they be worshipping any other God or trying to lure Jews into worshipping others and forbids a symbolic reading of the passages.Its also similar to the 5 Buddhist Precepts.This would 200-500 years after 10 Commandments.
1 Do not kill.
2 Do not steal.
3 Do not take intoxicants.
4 Do not indulge in false speech.
5 Do not commit sexual misconduct.I’m not at all critical of Judaism, its just that I like finding similarities in mankind’s different systems of ethics and mode of behaviour. I do that with Hinduism\ Buddhism or other ideas as well. It maybe just as interesting to compare say, the ancient Greek democracy with today’s Swiss democracy, both of which have certain similarities.
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Jerry says:
Rima-
How correct you are. I too believe that ‘religions’ are oftentimes at the core of the unjust, unfair, and atrocious treatment man can bestow upon man all over the world today.But . . . there’s one thing we must learn to separate when it comes to our belief in God Almighty. That one thing being ‘religion’.
You see, religion is man-made. Let’s take Christianity for instance. Followers of Jesus were called Christians first at Antioch (Acts 11:26) and they were done so mockingly. So you see, almost immediately when non-Christians identified a group in which they did not share the same belief with, they scorned them. It’s human nature.
So what we must do is learn to internalize our spiritual beliefs and have those beliefs transform our daily lives into tolerance, acceptance, patience, and love for our fellowman; regardless of what they’ve embraced spiritually. This, and only this, will take religion out of the picture.
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@ Patrick,
I’ve read the Bible once, will re read Paul’s letter to the Romans. There’s loads I like about the Bible actually, some values have stood the test of time and the Book of Solomon has great literary value, on par with the best of world literature.
I know that the three major monotheistic faiths, as well as their various sub sects or offshoots have an intense dislike to polytheism. But let me tackle the views one by one:
Judaism says non Jews are only required to respect the 7 Commandments out of all ten. One is certainly prohibition of idolatry. So according to Jews- Muslims, Christians even Hindu monotheists like say the Brahmo Samaj sect are eligible for a pleasant afterlife . Most Jews feel atheists\ agnosts are as well so non idolatrous Buddhists are. So Jews don’t usually spread the Word of the Lord and somehow they haven’t even to idolatrous Indians\ Chinese.
Islam says in one place that People of the Book- Jews and Christians are eligible for heaven but in another passage say they will be the inmates of Hell for disbelieving Koranic revelations. Muslims feel it worthwhile to preach to other People of the Book and have often persecuted them, but generally they are left undisturbed if they accept their status as Dhimmis and pay the Jiziya tax.
Christianity imposes the most stringent restrictions which say only the Christians’ baptized brethren will go to Heaven. Many passages in the NT say this. So a strict interpretation of this doctrine will mean Anne Frank and Einstein will burn in Hell forever.
You can love me, but as long as I don’t accept Christ I’m out of Heaven.Thus as a Christian harvesting souls for Christ is not only restricted to pagans but also other monotheisms. Alas, Muslim nations don’t let missionaries in and legally execute apostates.
All faiths have sometimes sexist, racist interpretations and the Eastern faiths share this characteristic with Western faiths. However, the difference is that they don’t claim non believers in their particular doctrine will burn in Hell forever or idolaters\non believers will burn. I’m off this discussion about religion on this thread, maybe we could discuss something else like beauty pageants(?)
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@ Rev Spitz,
I agree with you that abortion is a wrong and hope it is criminalized all over the world. But abortionists and their supporters don’t have the blod of innocent babies but innocent fetuses on their hands. And abortion clinic bombers have the blood of fully grown humans with families they love and maybe financially dependants on their hands. Anyway religion or Christianity isn’t always= pro life and atheism pro-choice. Many Christian organizations like the Episcopelian Church or the Methodist Church are pro choice. There’s even a Catholic Progressive Alliance which is pro choice.
And there are certain atheists who’re pro life. Like Nat Hentoff and Christopher Hitchens.There’s an Atheists and Agnostic pro life League Homepage which has loads of non believers who oppose abortion. One of my father’s oldest friends who’s a Bangladeshi Muslim turned atheist is virulently opposed to abortion.
Anyway although I’m very liberal in most respects I intensely dislike abortion and if it can be banned without bombings and killings I’d be very happy.
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janma says:
Sloka when do you ever get time to do school work girl!
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Janma, Sistah – although I am not black and presumably nor are you (girl):
Presumably she gets her schoolwork done when she’s not lecturing the household servants/retainers on the Rights of Man :D.
Anyway, a tendency to jabber at length has long been noted in the land of long train journeys and random defecation. When they’re smart, they’re very smart – perfectly capable of blathering on 5 forums at once *and* getting straight A’s at school. Fortunately they *do* bloviate a lot to no purpose and fritter away a good deal of their undoubted gifts in doing so. Just as well or they’d be a danger to the rest of us folks đ
Nothing to see here. Move along.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
@ Patrick
Dewarat says ââŠthen these âhumansâ, acting under the influence of such a âfaithâ, are on a dangerously downward slope called devolution.
If you quote someoneâs opinion then use the entire sentence in its original context and donât twist it into your own argument so that it fits your personal agenda. I was referring to the triumphalist display of sympathy with Osama bin Laden and the public disdain for the victims of the attack during the demonstrations in Jakarta after 9/11, not the alleged attacks on Christians by Indian nationalists.
I really hope that elephant in your room stomps that annoying little Asian mouse running around wildly and ranting and raving in a desperate attempt to be heard! ha ha ha!
I had already noticed your propensity for making little vicious attacks on other commenters in this forum so it actually comes to no surprise that you refer to me as a âlittle Asian mouseâ. Unfortunately for you it makes your subsequent statement
It stems from an arrogance that we some-how are superior in our dogma, faith, race and nationality than the other group.
sound like an involuntary self-accusation.
Besides the narrow-minded nastiness of character your sneering also exposes the self-indulgent and snobbish contempt some Anglo-Saxon Christians (sic) still nourish for native populations and other races. So to see the habit of humiliating and belittling of non-white ethnicities like the Subcontinent Indians and Pakis (wogs), Australian aborigines and native or African Americans before, still isnât completely uprooted. Weâll make a note to keep it in mind.
In the field of arrogance and self-righteousness Christians and Muslims sometimes appear to be birds of a feather: bullying or dumbfounding instead of proof as tactics to subdue and submit. Do they really believe that an attitude like this still is effective in a world of globalized knowledge?With full admission and agreement, the Islamic extremist problem is complex and there are no easy answers to be found so it may take quite a few years before it is finally rooted out but if all the nations and religions aforementioned can be reformed then why cannot Islam?
Gratuitous statements about the alleged complexity of a problem serve as pseudo-intellectual face-saving clichĂ©s to hide the fact that one doesnât know sh*t about it. I suggest you read al-Qurâan, Hadith and a few good books about psychology and you may see that the problem becomes a lot less complex.
@ Shloka & Rev Spitz
Although I’m not a Christian I agree with both of you concerning abortion as a free choice. It’s sickening to ascertain that human life, even in its earliest stages, becomes legally at the discretion of those who are responsible for its existence. Destroying a life seems to have become no greater dilemma than pulling a tooth. But life isn’t black or white, so there has to be room for exceptions like therapeutical abortions or those cases where responsibilty is out of the equation.
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Hi Dewarat –
1. The 3 dots in front of the quote already indicate that there is more to the quote and the reader can choose to look it up or not. That is standard English! I stand by what I wrote and make no apology to you or anyone else about it.
2, On behalf of mice everywhere I do apologize for including Dewarat in your number as he is clearly of a different species. Your really being too sensitive and besides isn’t this the third time already that you made comments concerning “the little Asian mouse?” Let it go!
3. Yep guilty of sometimes being narrowed minded and of other things but what you say about me pale’s in comparison to what my wife can say when she loses her cool : > ). But let me ask you this “do you have an inferiority complex”? What would Freud say about you? mmmmm…………
4. You manged to alienate a few billion people on this planet with your anti-Christian and anti-Muslim statements but as you indicated we unfortunately lack the intellect and rationale to refute anything you say. Gee I never realized your intellectual prowess until you pointed it out to me. I am in awe! You must be another Hindu-god? Do have a statue in your likeness for sale or are you available in animal form?
5. On the matter of pseudo-intellectualism please read most anything you write., ie., that nifty little bit on abortion you just posted. You start one-way and then completely reverse field as you manage to leave the reader as confused as you appear to be. Perhaps you should enter politics?
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@ Janma,
I’m off from school for three months. I’ve just given 10th standard exams. School starts July, Ill quit then.
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@ Kinch,
Extremely polite, aren’t you? For your information, we don’t have any domestic aids, my parents chose not to. Both of them work and share the housework, and I and my siblings do our own share of chores. Go join the KKK.
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Doesn’t matter even if you do have maids….. I have em….. love em too! I don’t see what that has to do with anything?
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Domestic Aids? Dear God.. can’t we just call a spade a spade… or is that somehow too unsophisticated.
Janma my implication was that she probably didn’t have a hell of a lot to do apart from passing exams and bloviating online… somehow I still find it hard to believe that an Indian of obvious middle or upper middle class background is doing her own housework.
As for maids, of course they are great. I wouldn’t live without them myself. What sane person with sufficient education/skill who could afford it would try to score moral points by doing their own ironing when they could be out earning more money doing what they do best and thereby increasing the common weal?
As for the KKK, I couldn’t see myself joining them. You call me a racist because I don’t mince words. I would say that I am simply speaking directly and being honest about the world as it is. I have zero tolerance for white trash too.
It should be apparent from my comments above that I have the greatest respect for the academic/intellectual powers of many Indians. Read my words. I have far less respect for certain other aspects of Indian Culture and society. Boo Hoo. World is still turning… and I respect (no, I tolerate) your right to have a go at me in reply. I am well aware that I too live in a glass house.
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@ kinch,
You can check out my house and friends when you visit India next- I sure have a lot of friends who do housework. And we’ve always been taught to clean up our own mess.
Having a go at you would mean this thread changes from “Religion and Religiousity to Blame” to something else altogether, so I’d rather blah about it somewhere else.@ Janma,
Having lived in India, you might be knowing that the 10th and 12th grade examinations are two important milestones in our schooling system. The examinations are conducted on an all India basis and the results take pretty long to arrive. So until my results come in mid July or so, I’ve plenty of time to kill. I go for swimming or dance classes and hang out with friends, but otherwise I thought this would be a good time to indulge in my interests of comparative religion and ancient civilizations. I just got hooked onto IM while researching for a project. Once school reopens my parents will ensure I spend far less time online so I’l probably restrict myself to mailing friends on other mundane matters.
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@ Patrick
I give up because going on like this will lead us nowhere. I admit, you are unflushible.
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Dewarat – That’s OK my little Hindu god when I make my daily offering to you I will be sure to flush twice a I know its a long way to where you live.
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I just got hooked onto IM while researching for a project. Once school reopens my parents will ensure I spend far less time online so Iâl probably restrict myself to mailing friends on other mundane matters.
Hon, you go right ahead and write all you want! It’s great to have someone new churning up the water here! You are of course right, it’s school holidays. i’d forgotten! Keep having fun!
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@ Shloka – You presented a great argument about the origin of the 10 commandments possibly being linked to the Egyptian book of the dead. The only possible defense that I could muster would be the Time-line for the Egyptians dynasties are wrong as I wrote earlier in a comment. If those archaeologist and scholars are correct in their theory then the 10 commandments would have been written first and if they are wrong it would make your premise correct. By the way how do we get you onto the monotheistic team? You would be an awesome convert! : > ) Good luck with school.
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Patrick, Patrick…… what’s so good about the ‘Monotheistic team’ ????? If you are going to sell, you should have some convincing arguments. đ
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@ Patrick
I said Iâd give up but I couldnât resist this one
3. ⊠But let me ask you this âdo you have an inferiority complexâ? What would Freud say about you? mmmmmâŠâŠâŠâŠ
4. ⊠I am in awe! You must be another Hindu-god? Do have a statue in your likeness for sale or are you available in animal form?
A Hindu-god with an inferiority complex ???
Hahaha. Thank you for making my day.
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@ Jamma – Exactly why we need someone like Shoka
@ Dewarat- perhaps you are the Hindu-god of the inferiority complex? Anyway, I am sure when my first offering arrives that will even top that experience for you. ha ha ha ha ha ha!
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Meditating On War And Guilt, Zen Says It’s Sorry
By ALLAN M. JALON
NEW YORK TIMES
Published: January 11, 2003To many Americans, Zen Buddhists primarily devote themselves to discovering inner serenity and social peace. But Zen has had strong ties to militarism — indeed so strong, that the leaders of one of the largest denominations in Japan have remorsefully compared their former religious fanaticism during Japan’s brutal expansionism in the 1930’s and 40’s to today’s murderously militant Islamists……
This appeared in the NY Times a few years back (again non-Christian publication) and should put an end to any arguments about Buddhism’s involvement with atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers during WWII and the year leading up to it. I rest my case!
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@ Patrick,
Despite’s kinch’s feelings, we just can’t seem to leave this thread can we?
Again about Japanese atrocities, before you call me shameless I condemn them, although you’ll probably neverthless call me shameless. However, just to compare, there were two centuries when “the sun never set on the British Empire.” Britain and other European colonial powers mercilessly looted all their colonies like the Dutch in Indonesia. As an Indian, I know that during 1857, there was a great mutiny in India, when Indians wanted freedom from British yoke. The mutiny was suppressed and thousands massacred. The Catholic Church or the Protestant Churches members kept coming to various colonies as missionaries, and so colonial powers and religious powers formed an unholy nexus. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours became the idea, and missionaries spread the faith and loyalty to colonial masters in equal measure. Indeed many of the colonialists who brutally suppresed natives of colonized lands were devout Christians. But their acts weren’t motivated by a twisted sense of love of Christ, rather they were motivated by love of their motherland. They wanted to make their country the richest in Europe, and the colonies were impoverished as a result of this. The centuries long colonization, the subsequent financial drain of colonies and racism and sub human treatment of natives wasn’t motivated by Christianity but patriotism, although the evils were committed overwhelmingly by people who happened to be Christians.
Did the Zen Buddhists forcibly convert Indonesians- Malaysians to Buddhism like the Spanish Catholics converted Indian Hindus, Muslims and even Jews(who were happily free from ati semitism till then in India) to Christianity in the 15th to 17th centuries? Were they fighting a Crusade against the Allied powers?
These are different categories:
Racism: Thinking one’s race eg. white is superior.
Sexism: Thinking one’s gender eg. male is superior.
Jingoism: Thinking one’s nation eg World War Germany or Japan is superior.Finally Religious Fundamentalism: Thinking one’s religion is the best , wanting to enforce it on others by force, killing or tormenting those who don’t share it or fighting wars with others to propagate it or defend it.
All these have been cause enough to discriminate,persecute, demean or even kill.
These three categories are very distinct , Patrick. Buddhists haven’t killed others on a MONUMENTAL scale just for believing in different Gods, but that doesn’t mean they’re free from jingoism, and nationalism has of course killed thousands and is as potent a force for group support and non group hatred as any religion.
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Lairedion says:
Thanks Patrick for showing your true colors as a Believer.
Ridiculing and proselytizing. No wonder why so many have lost their respect for Christians and Muslims and are fed up with you guys. As I said earlier you guys live on the notion “I’m right and you’re wrong because I believe in Grandpa and you don’t”. History and this thread has proven this has never been a good base to start a discussion.
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@ Patrick
Again about the Book of the Dead, you might be knowing that the Ancient Egyptian Civilization and faith is at least 6000 years old, while Judaism originated well after the Egyptian god\esses.This isn’t my theory, only in the Abraham story the great Jewish patriarch offers his wife Sarah to the Pharoah’s harem and claims she’s his sister, so Abraham, Pharoah and the Egyptian faith co-existed, while Moses recieved the Ten Commandemnts after Abraham, right?
The Book of the Dead originates at least from 2600 BCE . They contain instructions for life after death, a sort of manual. The Hebrew version (10 commandments) originates also in or near Egypt, 1490 BCE at the time of Hebrew exodus from Egypt,whether it happened due to slavery, Akhenaten’s monotheism, volcanoes, diseases or otherwise(all well known scholarly opinions).
– the main difference is that the Hebrew version is shorter, the 42 gods are replaced by 1 god and the sabbath has been added. This version has been passed on to the Christain community . The 42 Gods replaced by one God has the following verse in Deuteronomy13:7-11 in which one God tells you to kill your siblings, best friend or spouse if they tell you to worship another God. Deuteronomy 13:1 says,”what I’m telling you now, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away.” so a symbolic reading is forbidden by One God, and you kill your loved ones, full stop.And of course, the Sabbath rule also said that those breaking Sabbath should be killed. So none of the innovations introduced by one God seems very kind to me.Polytheistic gods taught the same moral values, while allowing you or your loved ones to worship others or none.
According to Jewish tradition (based on the Anno Mundi era introduced by Maimonides in the 12th century), Abraham lived AM 1948â2123 (1812 BC to 1637 BC). Christian traditional dates are about 2000 BC to 1825 BC. Both dates follow the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
And yes, about getting the dates of Exodus wrong , thats’ also a well known opinion and very possible but none of te new dates places Moses around the time of the three Pyramids of Giza(2650B.C. to 2500 B.C.) when the Book of the Dead originated.However, suppose I place an incident in Clinton’s Presidency and it happened in (say) Bush’s Presidency, there’d still be concrete records right? Changing dates and archaeological evidence leads some scholars to believe that there might, JUST MIGHT be such an Exodus, again no records. In fact, not only Reform Rabbis even Conservative Rabbis like David Wolpe, raised doubts on the Exodus’s historicity. Exodus is even more important to Jews that to you Christians so why would a Conservative Rabbi say such things? Some Muslims’ claim the 9\11 attacks was a Jewish plot, and offer some flimsy reasons. I, millions others and these disbelieving Conservative and Reform Rabbis need more evidence, and thats’ not there.
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@ Patrick,
Again, no one denied the World War II Japanese atrocities or claim they happened rarely. Those are historical facts and that they lasted 5 years is history too. The reason counter examples of Christian colonialism were given was because you linked Japan’s atrocities with some Buddhist faults. We may do wrong or even debased evil actions for many reasons right? One is certainly religion. Others maybe race, sex, nationalism etc. The White South Africans’ didn’t imprison Mandela or continue the Apartheid regime due to their Christianity, although they were certainly majority Christians. No, they did their despicable acts as they believed their race is superior to Blacks, and so they have to keep at a distance from Blacks and cannot serve Blacks. The men of the 19th century who opposed women entering Universities didn’t do so for their Christianity, although in the 19th century, Europe and America had a negligible proportion of non believers so those men would mostly be Christian. They did it as they felt women had inferior intelligence and their smaller brains couldn’t cope with the rigours of College education. Indeed many Doctors said so. In Napoleonic France, the French wanted to defeat Britain not as they were Catholic and the British Anglican, but due to their national pride.
Since you mentioned Japanese rapes, which is authentic history, another authentic history far after World War ii is My Lai in Vietnam in 1968. In this case, although there were no Vietnamese soldiers in that village,American soldiers burned down every house, raped women even girls and then kiled them.They stabbed some women in their vagina, and pregnant women’s stomachs were torn open and they were left to die. In 4 hours, 500 innocent people were killed.
More recently, you might have heard of torture in Abu Gharaib. American soldiers paraded Iraqis naked, and women soldiers rubbed their menstrual blood on Iraqis.
These atrocities weren’t commited by Americans’ as they’re Christians although most Americans are and during Vietnam an overwhelming majority were. Americans’ did it out of a twisted sense of patriotism.Similarly, Japanese atrocities weren’t done to spread or protect Buddhism, and unlike Paul no Buddhist apostle had written that non Buddhists will burn in Hell, regardless of their goodness. No, even if Japanese weren’t motivated by Buddhist frenzy, ordinary Japanese and monks were motivated by nationalistic frenzy. And while Buddhism may not have had Inquisitions to forcibly convert others the Buddhist countries are as vulnerable to a foolish ad cruel patriotism as any other nation. Why blame patriotism motivated killings(or race motivated, or personal issue related or Communist regime related) on religion?Thats’ what others’ felt.