Fitna by Geert Wilders
Mar 7th, 2008, in Opinion, by LairedionLairedion on the gathering storm over Geert Wilders’ upcoming anti-Islam film “Fitna”.
Tensions are rising as Dutch controversial MP Geert Wilders is about to reveal his anti-Quran movie Fitna. How will Indonesian Muslims respond to the next “insult” on Islam, shortly after the second Danish cartoon controversy?
Since his emergence in Dutch politics Geert Wilders has gained much attention and support for his fierce anti-Islam and anti-immigration stances. In line with contemporary right-wing politicians his message seems simple yet appealing and his voice is loud. Deport criminal and illegal foreigners, stop the Islamization of Dutch society (prohibit construction of new mosques, refusing all Muslims from moving to and living in Holland), sell the Dutch Antilles to the highest offer on a Dutch auction website and much of the problems are solved.
So far his party PVV (Freedom Party) managed to win 9 seats in the last elections but opinion polls show they can count on 15 seats at least or even more if elections are hold right now. But his “crusade” comes with a price. Like so many critics of Islam he is constantly under the threat of being murdered and needs to be guarded 24/7 and lives on a secret location.
Geert Wilders.
Geert Wilders, who has some Indonesian blood running through his veins, wants to show the world Al-Quran is a fascist and violent book, in line with Hitler’s Mein Kampf, and must be banned. It will be interesting to see how Wilders can dismiss a book, considered holy by 1.3 billion people, as fascist in a movie of 15 minutes, while ulama’s and clerics have been studying Al-Quran for centuries and up until now are having trouble to come to an unified explanation and interpretation.
But what’s all the fuss about? So far it has only been speculation and the movie hasn’t been broadcasted yet.
Anyway the Netherlands is pretty much in a state of alert. The Dutch government is preparing for the worst-case scenario (retaliation, violence and damage towards Dutch citizens, economic interests and enterprises, terrorist attacks). On the other side many people are criticizing the Dutch government for exaggerating any potential dangers and impacts caused by this movie. An interesting sign is that Dutch Muslims seem to grow mature and sensible in their reactions towards insults to Islam. The last Danish cartoon controversy didn’t spark any violence or significant protest in Holland and this movie will be just the next insult, meant to provoke reactions and violence so that Wilders can prove his points and not worthy paying any attention.
The worldwide reaction probably will be different. Recovering from the latest Danish cartoon controversy, Muslims worldwide are preparing for the next Western “assault” on Islam. Politicians in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran are urging the Dutch government to prohibit the broadcast and last week some 200 Indonesian Muslims staged a protest outside the Dutch Embassy in Jakarta.
Where does the freedom of speech crosses the line and turns into discrimination thus violating article 1 of the Dutch Constitution where discrimination of people on their gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, political view or any other ground is prohibited? This is the same article Wilders is referring to by branding Al-Quran as fascist.
It is not known yet when the movie will go online. So far Wilders has stated the move is finished and he is negotiating a broadcast with Dutch TV stations but this is likely to fail as none of them want to burn their fingers. 28 March 2008 could be a possible date. For anyone interested bookmark www.fitnathemovie.com in your favorites.
415 Comments on “Fitna by Geert Wilders”
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rupert says:
If this is the case we should consider some preemptive strikes on Masjid Al-Aqsa and the moonstone and two mosques in Mecca.
lairedion I dont think Nukin them is the answer fanatics are no afraid of death! well as long as it isnt theirs. The thing these Islamists fear the most is Education I say we try to educate the muslim youth before the hate mongers (imans) get to them. This I believe is the only way to peace between the Muslims and the rest of the world is through education . Before it gets to the point where they the muslims are dispised even more hate only begets more hate .
rupert -
Cukurungan says:
Enough is enough.
Remember since 400 years a go, the Muslim just were sleeping because we strongly believe that the Jesus follower would spread peace and compassion around the world but the history and the reality flooded us otherwise then why we should say enough while we still do nothing.
These clowns are becoming more and more grotesque. And the world looks on in awe and silence, and isn’t allowed to retaliate
The problem is not whether allowed or not allowed but who will do that because even Mr Bush says Islam is a “Great Religion that Preaches Peace”
The thing these Islamists fear the most is Education I say we try to educate the muslim youth before the hate mongers (imans) get to them. This I believe is the only way to peace between the Muslims and the rest of the world is through education .
Agree with better education the Muslim would be able to produce the educated Muslim such Osama bin Laden a civil engineer and Al-Zawahiri a qualified surgeon who know better to deal with the west than the Madrasah/Pesantren Graduate.
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cuk get a life! Islam does preach peace its the evil doers like bin Laden and his group of miss guided evil doers that are hijacking Islam and make massmurders and baby killers of your youth.The world is looking closely at Islam now the pious minds of islam have the chance now to clean up your religion and expose these murders. Show the world muslims want to live in peace but those voices are silent what a shame for muslims all over the world sad very sad!! leadership what a waste
so cukcuk said
Agree with better education the Muslim would be able to produce the educated Muslim such Osama bin Laden a civil engineer and Al-Zawahiri a qualified surgeon who know better to deal with the west than the Madrasah/Pesantren Graduate.
cuk you should not be proud of this
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Jake says:
Well said rupert. Islam does preaches peace but those evil doers (bin laden & co) and illiterate does not understand the teachings of Islam what will they preach!
But there are muslims who are trying to clean the image of Islam and they are doing it bravely. Hats off to them. Go to this site to find out more about them.
Go to http://www.alislam.org
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Lairedion says:
rupert,
Trying to educate the True Muslims is naive and useless. Don’t even bother to think about it.
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Lairedion ,
what are your thoughts on how to intergrate “true Muslims ” in to the world society . Myself I think it can be done through education from what i have read here Iam not optismistic violence seems to be the only thing these Islamists want . what a dredful future for us here in the west
rupert -
Some Dutchmen still have their balls and sense of humor.
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/04/sorry-for-film-fitna.html -
dewaratugedeanom says:
rupert said
what are your thoughts on how to intergrate “true Muslims ” in to the world society . Myself I think it can be done through education from what i have read here Iam not optismistic violence seems to be the only thing these Islamists want . what a dredful future for us here in the west.
Although your question was directed to Lairedion, allow me to step in.
Education, yes. But by whom? As long as they only trust their imams and religious scholars, who will be able to turn the tide? Anything foreign and not conforming to their holy book is already demonised before it has a chance to prove itself.
It will be a long and intricate process. Economic development will be a determinant factor. Maybe the internet and good – not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia – can be of influence by exposing them to alternative ways of thinking than the ones they have been indoctrinated with. Anything beyond the direct control of their mind-snatching clerics will be of help.
I know I will get a lot of angry responses because of this, but the allowance of a certain kind of ‘civilised’ pornography – let’s call it ‘erotica’ – can have positive influences. That’s why the clerics are so afraid it of and try to ban it by all means. Because it has liberating and appeasing effects, so they cannot channel this sexual energy into their destructive agenda of control. Civilizations with a permissive stance on erotica like the Hindu’s usually also proclaim an abstinence of violence. Ask also any psychiatrist what damage the repression of sexual interest can do to people’s minds and don’t believe it when the bigoted clerics pretend that it will corrupt our youth or lead to rape and broken homes. They will come up with all kinds of statistics about the West trying to relate erotica to the number of divorce cases and to rape which in their own countries they simply sweep under the carpet. But not only the West has now – not always before – a liberal attitude regarding erotica. Many other civilizations had, and still have.
People with love and sex on their minds don’t go blow themselves up, they have other interests. -
rupert,
Muslims Against Sharia couldn’t drop his comment at a better time. Movements like them are the key. Reform, re-interpretation and daring to criticize and question your own holy considered books and texts.
I checked their blog. They have a reform Qur’an available, free from violent and contradictory verses. Just what Wilders urged Muslims to do when using the phone book metaphor in Fitna. Tear out all the violent and hateful passages.
But, as an agnostic, I’m not into patronizing them. It’s up to them. The only thing of my concern is that Muslims and Christians (the two active in proselytizing) leave others alone and keeps their beliefs for themselves only.
If True Muslims like this Hamas dude want to overrun and conquer every single place on Earth I have no problem dropping equally strong statements about preemptive strikes. I wouldn’t want this to happen for real but I’m despise all those political correct Westerners like Odinius (a fellow debater here on IM) who, under the banner of mulitculturalism, give room to all kinds of hateful currents undermining modern secular societies.
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Re. my post of 12:37 pm
Maybe the internet and good – not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia –
should of course be read as
Maybe the internet and good TV – not the silly crap the masses are fed with here in Indonesia –
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The reformed Qur’an…cool!
Are we going to have a reformed Old Testament and a reformed New Testament with anything that is offensive, ambiguous or open to interpretation?
That being said there are interesting arguments to be made why interpretation of the Qur’an is so despised and what is to be gained by preventing modern interpretation…I note with interest that the Muslims Against Sharia site has a dedicated email address for death threats. At least they’re conscious of the fact that there will be some muslims out there less than thrilled with their calls for reform!
Islam preaches peace? Well, perhaps it does but if anything Wilders’ in Fitna has selectively used various Sura where there is a suggestion that violence and subjugation is acceptable in certain circumstances and this highlights that there are a number of issues that must be addressed in the dialogue between Islam and followers of other religious faiths!
Let’s face it, calls to re-establish the Caliphate and all-out jihad war against the “west” or the “non-believers” is sure to cause a great deal of concern to those who are non-Muslim and perhaps rightly so! And perhaps this concern will extend to non-Muslims as well who have a much more moderate interpretation of their Holy Books and traditions.
On the Muslims against Sharia group perhaps a little more research is needed on them to determine whether they are in fact Muslim at all and this may assist in determining whether they are legitimate and representative of those Muslims who may truly seek reform!
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William says:
dewaratugedeanom said:
the allowance of a certain kind of ‘civilised’ pornography – let’s call it ‘erotica’ – can have positive influences. That’s why the clerics are so afraid it of and try to ban it by all means. Because it has liberating and appeasing effects, so they cannot channel this sexual energy into their destructive agenda of control. Civilizations with a permissive stance on erotica like the Hindu’s usually also proclaim an abstinence of violence. Ask also any psychiatrist what damage the repression of sexual interest can do to people’s minds and don’t believe it when the bigoted clerics pretend that it will corrupt our youth or lead to rape and broken homes. They will come up with all kinds of statistics about the West trying to relate erotica to the number of divorce cases and to rape which in their own countries they simply sweep under the carpet. But not only the West has now – not always before – a liberal attitude regarding erotica. Many other civilizations had, and still have.
People with love and sex on their minds don’t go blow themselves up, they have other interests.”You are quite right! The voice of reason spoke!
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Hey Patung,
Why are my posts scrambled? Some sinister forces at work?
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The strange characters in your comments look like you’ve copy pasted the text from somewhere, like a Word document or an email message or somewhere. Or you use a some kind of weird computer/operating system or something. Nothing to do with me.
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Patung,
Yes, sometimes I prepare comments in Word and then paste them in IM. But I have done so for a long time and the strange characters never appeared before. I have noticed now that it also happens with posts from other commenters. Weird.
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Patung,
Yes, sometimes I prepare comments in Word and then paste them in IM. But I have done so for a long time and the strange characters never appeared before. I have noticed now that it also happens with posts from other commenters. Weird.
It must be a Jew conspiracy
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Ahmad says:
hi
I read there it is written nobody burns Iran’s flag. Be sure Iran’s flag is no more important than their prophet and their religion. Even though our flag is so important to us, but we love our prophet and our religion. This film is the most insulting attack against us and all muslims throughout the world. Furthermore not only Iranians burn the US flag, but also this is done in all those countries suffering from the behaviors of US officials. I am so bothered of the film that cannot even think about criticising it. -
Agnes says:
INDONESIA IS NOTED FOR ITS HYPOCRISY.
They blame the others but in the other hand they dont know exactly what they have done to the others.
I have read a moslem’s magazinen and the contents are a lot more excessive than what fitna tells about.
The conclusion :
We have hurted and have been hurted a lot.
Why dont we stop?
We should bear mutual respect to the others.
Doing contemplation is a lot better than blaming and throwing off on the others.
Why can’t we live without wars?PS :
I agree with Joe. -
@ Agnes
It has been this way for centuries long, or for most, it has begun ever since the first man and the first woman walk upon earth. It wasn’t supposed to end until (it eventually bring us all to) the end of the world.
What matters is what will happen afterwards.. 🙂
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John Green says:
Cukurungan
It is ludicrous to claim that Islam is a religion of peace and moderation. The Quran preaches hatred and vengeance, as do Muslim religious teachers throughout the world. Muslims are slaughtering Muslims in the name of God in Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Asia.
What is wrong with your God? Why is she so evil?
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djoko says:
Quraish Shihab takes an intellectual baseball bat to Fitna.
Free download, 97 pages, but Indonesian only at the moment.
http://www.f-buzz.com/2008/05/05/buku-ayat-ayat-fitna/
No matter which particular stream any one individual Muslim is from, most of those I have spoken to in Indonesia says that the guy really knows his chops (he’s got that massive set of tafsir books which get plugged every year during bulan puasa).
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Cukurungan
It is ludicrous to claim that Islam is a religion of peace and moderationI did not say so but Mr Bush say:
Bush Says Islam Is a “Great Religion that Preaches Peace”
President tells Al Arabiya those who murder innocents are not religious
Washington — Ahead of hosting an iftar celebration at the White House, President Bush said the Islamic religion “is a great religion that preaches peace,” and that Americans are free “to worship any way they see fit.”
More detail visit :
http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/October/20071005143134esnamfuak0.9335138.htmlThe Quran preaches hatred and vengeance, as do Muslim religious teachers throughout the world.
Show me your evidence? How come the civilized western countries let the book of the hatred and vengeance published and distributed in the western country freely? And how can Germany Government let their citizen embrace to the violence religion see below:
MUSLIM CONVERTS IN GERMANY
Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers — And Find Them in the Koran
By Lutz Ackermann
The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year — despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public.
More detail see:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,460364,00.htmlMuslims are slaughtering Muslims in the name of God in Africa, Arab countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Asia.
They are only emulating what the Jesus Follower had been done among them self (remember WW 1&2 and some religion War in Europe). However, it is more honorable to kill in name of God rather kill other in the sake of Fun like the Jesus Follower do as we speak.
What is wrong with your God? Why is she so evil?
There is nothing wrong with God? Today, God is just watching on us from the above universe and He patiently wait and see how human has been abusing the privilege have been given upon them.
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gigi says:
Islamo-fascists? Muslim bigots? I hear a lot of those words in this thread, and those words came from…non-Muslim bigots! Yes, well I suppose bigotry is fine, as long as it didn’t come from those darn Muslims, isn’t it my bigoted friends??? The way I see it, the world will never attain peace until all those bigots are gone, whatever their religion or political affiliation.
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I’m no rocket scientist, but it seems that this Aluang Anak Bayang character is an Islam hater guising himself as a Muslim and uttering sarcasms along the way. Another coward in the likes of the proverb “lempar batu sembunyi tangan”.
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Cukurungan
My advice to you is not to believe the prophecies of Mr. Bush. I doubt that he can even spell the word Islam let alone express an opinion.
You ask for evidence of the hatred and vengeance contained in the Quran. You must read the book and you will find evidence in nearly every chapter. It is the document that is quoted by Islamists and Jihadists to justify their atrocities. If you do not have a copy of the Quran I can send you the address of a website with the Quran in English and Arabic, in a searchable format. It really is X certificate stuff. Don’t read it last thing at night!
Europe is free from book-censorship. The Quran is freely available. You can even obtain copies of “Mein Kampf “if you want to explore Hitler’s twisted mind. There is also freedom to practice whatever religion you wish, unlike most Islamic countries. Although there is a large minority in Britain who practice Islam, not many unbelievers convert. There are some Moslems who wish to leave the religion but these people are physically and verbally attacked by fellow Moslems and they receive death threats.
You are mistaken if you believe the two World Wars were religious wars. There are libraries full of books that will explain to you the historical context of these wars.
By the way, what do you mean by a “Jesus Follower”. Do you mean a Christian? Do you prefer to call Moslems “Mohammed Followers”?
I would suggest that there is no honour in killing any innocent person, whether for fun or for hatred. What puzzles me is that your religion came from the same roots as the Jewish religion and Christianity. Why then all the hatred and bigotry? To an atheist like me, it is all just nonsense.
One final point: how can you know the whereabouts of your God, and whether She is up amongst the clouds watching you or what Her motives are? Does She give you daily bulletins? I think we should be told.
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@ John Green:
One final point: how can you know the whereabouts of your God, and whether She is up amongst the clouds watching you or what Her motives are? Does She give you daily bulletins? I think we should be told.
I’m of the opinion that we should not be told. Because that’s the whole point of this thing called life. I think life is a testing ground of our faith in the unseen Supreme Being. If we succeed in life then our reward is in the hereafter, because we have proven that we are worthy of being near Him in the paradise. If we fail then the punishment is there as well, because we have failed to live up to the responsibilities that God had placed upon us, we have failed to become accountable for our actions in His view.
If God can be seen by all humanity everyday (say if we could see Him in the sky above) and rewarding the pious while punishing the sinners on the spot, then we don’t need faith, do we? And tell me, what’s the point of having free will in such case, for example? Think about it.
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Janma says:
If we succeed in life then our reward is in the hereafter, because we have proven that we are worthy of being near Him in the paradise. If we fail then the punishment is there as well, because we have failed to live up to the responsibilities that God had placed upon us, we have failed to become accountable for our actions in His view.
If God can be seen by all humanity everyday (say if we could see Him in the sky above) and rewarding the pious while punishing the sinners on the spot, then we don’t need faith, do we? And tell me, what’s the point of having free will in such case, for example? Think about it.
see, for me that attitude just makes God sound like some sick game playing judgmental git.
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@ Janma:
But life isn’t a game, is it? It’s a serious test, a proving ground if you will. It seems He only wanted seriously good people around Him in His paradise. Why? Because if even good people on earth prefer the presence of other good people rather than bad ones around them, can you imagine the source of all that is good: God?
see, for me that attitude just makes God sound like some sick game playing judgmental git.
The same can be said about people like you: see, for me that attitude showed your innate arrogance, you think that you can (have the right to) judge God (as “some sick game playing judgmental git”) but God as the One Being that had created you out of nothingness can’t (doesn’t have the right to) judge whether you deserve to be around His presence in the afterlife?
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what would be the whole point of creating people and then testing them and then hanging out with them after they pass the test…..
I’m not judging God, I’m judging your idea of God…. cause that’s all it is. An idea.
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If this is the case we should consider some preemptive strikes on Masjid Al-Aqsa and the moonstone and two mosques in Mecca.