415 Comments on “Fitna by Geert Wilders”

1. Shloka says:

   August 16, 2008 at 11:42 pm

   barry prima,

   Of course the power was not with the Native Americans or Red Indians, as “they started worshipping idols.” Look what the Holy Koran has to say about idolaters:

   “Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)

   Of course the idols of Bamiyan Buddhas had to be destroyed too, according to the Noble Koran’s words. When the great Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) attacked Mecca, he broke every one of Mecca’s idols saying, ” truth has come and falsehood has departed, indeed falsehood is ever bound to depart” (Al Israa’: 81).

   Of course, now Muslim separatists are waging jihad against the Thai idolater Buddhists, who worship before idols of Buddha. Inshallah, these jihadis will win in Thailand, and will be able to smash all the idols of Buddha, repeating Prophet Mohammed’s(PBUH) noble words! And the Muslim Bali bombers were totally justified too, in killing the people of Bali. After all, the people of Bali were “idolaters”, while the Muslim terrorists performed “carnage” but we’ve learnt in the Holy Koran that idolatry is worse than carnage, right?

   Muslims will tell you that all Prophet Mohammed’s(PBUH) wars were in self defence and they’re perfectly right. If American soldiers fought a war in self defence against the Taliban, and destroyed each and every single one of the mosques of Afghanistan chanting-“truth has come and falsehood departed tra la la…” it would be regarded as against the spirit of just warfare but who cares? We know that there’s one set of rules for Prophet Mohammed( PBUH) and another for the rest of humankind, right?

   We need people like you and me, to educate the Balinese and Thai idolaters what they’re doing wrong, and if they still aren’t enlightened by our words- we need the Muslims like the noble and brave Bali bombers and the innumerable Muslim jihadis in Thailand who perform carnage in these regions. After all-thanks to the Holy Koran and Prophet Mohammed’s (PBUH) glorious example, we now know that idolatry is worse than carnage and wars not only need to be fought with idolaters physically, but their idols smashed too!

2. barry prima says:

   August 17, 2008 at 12:43 am

   Their is no such thing as idolatry in my islamic world view..

   All is god…it is a matter of degree and emphasis,wether it is an aspect of the whole you focus on or the totality itself.
   Islamic civilisation emerrged to restore balance,to a society that focused too much on specific aspects of the divine which blocked their vision of the whole and thus created a lopsidedsociety.

   Death and destruction are natures way of rebalancing things,the hindu balinese will be in complete agreement with me on that one.
   God has 99 attributes, the godess kali is personified in the gods attribute of wrath and vengance.Kwan im and the virgin Mary are personified in the attributes of mercy.
   I am hindu and buddhist as well as a muslim.

   Your political correctness and sentimentalism does not belong in the balinese/hindu world view as much as it doesnt belong in the Islamic one.

   A whole paragraph of sarcasm doesent disguise that fact that youre not very good at it ,as you seem to be unable to see it in other peoples writings.
   (ie my refernce to idol worship amonst the native indians)

3. barry prima says:

   August 17, 2008 at 12:44 am

   To Shloka and Rupeert Bear :

   I have seen you make a lot of comments about the Quran,which you so truimphantly throw around ,,thinking you have defeateed a civilization of 1400 years with a few selected passages.You should know its never that easy!
   Instead of reftuing you verse by verse,which some of the others in the forum have already done,ill try to explain what the quran is and how it is to be understood.
   First of all the Quran is not like a communist Manifesto,it is not a rule book telling you explicitly what is right and wrong.The quran doesnt present a black and white vision of the world otherwise people would have got bored of it years ago.Dictators dont have a lasting appeal and peace and love is pretty boring too.We like bit of hell fire and damnation from our religions,it keeps it interesting.Allah is basically a bad boy with a heart of gold.Isnt that what all women want?
   The Quran is multi faceted and multi dimensional,it operates on many levels of reality at once..All Sacred and many non sacred works of literature actually have this charecter,so appying a rigid,soulless one dimensional critique ,without looking at the whole or trying to understands the nature,context and purpose, is unfair on any work, let alone one that has maintained civilization for 1400 years.You only see in a book,what is inside of you.
   Regarding the contradictions in the quran and its violence.
   The quran is full of contradictions,i have absolutely no problem in admitting that.It doesnt affect its legitimacy to me in the slightest.
   As i said the quran deals with many levels , it thus corresponds to reality itself.The world only came into existence and continues to exist,because of the creative tension between opposing forces .Life is contradiction,without contradiction there is no life. Without evil their is no such thing as good,without his wrath god could not show mercy.The quran and islamic civilisation is thus not about seperation of things into right and wrong(if it does so this is only accidental and utilitarian).It is about finding a balance between things,the sirat-ul-mustaqim is the straight path between heaven and hell,the balancing of yin and yang.
   Some things are true on one level or in one context but not another.Some things have priority over others.Truth has sometimes to be propogated with a falshood.God cannot reveal himself in his absoluteness to the human being if he did the universe wouldnt exist.As the jewish concept of tsim tsum tell us the world is only made possible by the shrinking of god.That is why god says in the Quran ,he is veiled from human beings by 70,000 veils of light and darkness.
   Hatred ,emnity and lust are part of human nature.The quran does not pretend that these things dont exist or even that they shouldnt.It seeks by recognising them,to reverse their movement from downwards towards hell to upwards toward heaven.
   As the taoist would say ‘the sage does not shy away from the naturual,nor wallow in the aritificial’
   The Quran caters to all the prejudices and weakness in man because It is like an image of everything the human mind can think and feel. If utilised correctly it absorbs and transforms the disquiet into serenity and peace,the mulitplicity and seperation into unity and cohesion.
   In reality it t doesnt always work,not because of the medicine,but because its not used correctly or the patient doesnt take the whole course.Anything powerful and worth striving for ,comes with danger attached to it.. Paradise dont come cheap as they say.It is man himself who was foolish enough to take burden of independence that everything else in creation rejected.So he has to stand as a man and take the good with bad.Isnt that what makes life Beautiful,both the tragerdy and the truimph?
   So the Quran on one hand is hugely critical of the jews and chrisitans,but on the other hand,is very concillitroy towards them.It is also very critical of the muslims themselves and calls most of them polytheist,but then promises them all heaven.On the one hand it cautions against making friends with non muslims,on the other hand it says you will not find better amongst you for friends than the christians.
   On the one hand it orders Jihad against unbelievers,on the other it says there is no compulsion in religion.It allows revenge,but says its better to forgive.It allows slavery,but places a hugh value on freeing slaves.It Allows 4 wives,but says it is best to have only one.
   For every positive action,there is an equal an opposite reaction in the quran.
   THe quran is a set of veils and keys,a mosaic,strewn with enigmas,contradictions and difficulties.With the right approach to it,you beging to penetrate,deeper and deeper levels within it,in fact it is inexhuastable,and thats what makes it so compelling.Behind the husk of the literal text,their are hidden worlds which go far beyond the actual words.
   It is by virtue of this transcendent reality that the quran acts upon the believer,not its literal dimension.That is why the quran has certain verses,that are used to excorcise demons and heal illness.That is the reason,their are whole brotherhoods,especially in Indonesian,of people who dont know arabic,but use the quran in magical ways.People who have no knowledge of arabic,spend their whole life singing the quran,without ever thinking the records got boring.
   You also have to remember that charecter of the quran at its most basic literal level was revealed in a civilisation that that practrised infacticide,sorcery,unlimited polygamy and was enshrouded in superstition.You think that god would send a hippy as a prophet who would wave a magic wand and make everything all lovely and wonderful ?
   Only liberals wrapped in cotton wool in their cozy suburban prisons think like that,.The savage also has a certain dignity and worth in the eyes of god.There is nothing more beutiful than a righteous fist in the face of the opressor.Violence can be lovely. As rumi said the path of love is not subtle,but a complete devastation!

4. Shloka says:

   August 17, 2008 at 10:10 am

   Barry Prima,

   I’m not at all trying to make your 1400 year old world view disappear, just trying to set it right. What is this imaginary Islam that you’re following?

   You say that there’s no such thing as idolatry in your Islamic world view, but look what the Koran says:

   “Slay them wherever you find them…Idolatry is worse than carnage…Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme.” (Surah 2:190-)

   “Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Surah 8:36-)

   Thus Allah is not only aware of the existence of idolatry, he wants his followers to wage relentless war on the idolaters. Yes! His message is crystal clear in the words of the Koran itself. Not only that, smashing idols after winning a war is also shown in Prophet Mohammed’s example. Otherwise, why did he smash all the 360 idols in Mecca? Mohammed is regarded as the most perfect of all men and an example to emulate by Muslims. You should love him more than your father, mother and friends, and strive to follow his noble example.Good Muslims love Mohammed(PBUH) so much, that when a Danish cartoonist drew some images of the Prophet, they decided to kill the cartoonist, and he’s still in hiding! Good Paki Muslims, who don’t twist the clear messages of the Koran, dutifully planted a bomb outside the Danish Embassy in Pakistan, killing 9!

   Thus, far from being a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Hindu at the same time, you too should take up weapons along with the Bali bombers and the Thai jihadis and wage relentless war on the idolaters. You may dislike fighting them but the Koran,as always, is crystal clear on this issue: “Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.” (Surah 2:216)

   Of course, my views are completely alien to the Balinese Hindu and Buddhist worldviews, but the noble Holy Koran supports this worldview. It is you who’s disobeying the Koran’s instructions, and twisting the crystal clear messages. Here:

   “It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it.” (Surah 9:31-) Allah told his messenger that Islam is the true faith and idolatrous Hinduism\Buddhism false faiths. Still don’t get the clear message? 😉

   And of course, you have to next set the Indonesian Muslims on the right track. They couldn’t read the Koran in Arabic, so they didn’t have the beautiful cultural practices of the Arabs like honor killing, cousin marriage, compulsory veiling, bombers blowing others up shouting, ” Allahu Akbar” etc.They foolishly used the Koran in magical ways! However, thankfully after they began performing the Hajj in the 19th century, things have improved dramatically. Alhamdulillah, now they have compulsory hijab in Aceh, they’ve banned the heretic Ahmadiyya (who were also twisting the clear messages of the Koran like you)and the proud Bali bombers. Inshallah, other beautiful practices will soon follow. 😉

   And finally, stop supporting the wicked polytheists. As you yourself said, the Koran is very critical of polytheists- it even calls bad Muslims polytheists. So being called a polytheist is a great insult- much more than being a bomber! (re idolatry is worse than carnage).

   I agree with you that the Koran is a bad boy- thats’ why converts to Islam like Dhiren Barot or white Western converts are so likely to be potential terrorists and join the jihad against infidels!

5. djoko says:

   August 17, 2008 at 12:31 pm

   @ barry

   Nice attempt to try and present the ‘feel’ of the Qur’an. Judging by shloka’s follow up response though, I don’t think you’ve made a lot of headway.

   @shloka

   Let’s just call a spade a spade and go from the starting point that pretty much any time you comment on Islam your train of thought works like this: “Islam sucks, now how do I go about proving it?”

   If you want to look at the real world and at how Muslims conduct themselves, you’ve got more than enough proof to go on for your little crusade. However I think if you start quoting Islamic scripture you’re going to have a bit more of a problem. As much as you would like things to be ‘clear cut’ as you’ve nicely managed to present above, they’re not.

   One thing which Geert, like yourself, has done with regards to Fitna has separated verses from any historical context. The bits about going around waging war on ‘idolators’ and so on, well those were because there were an awful lot of people following polythestic religions (in most of these verses its the Meccans who are being referred to) who were doing their utmost to wipe out the new, and still relatively small Muslim community. They have a lot more to do with that particular situation than an eternal call to wage perpetual war against all other religions.

   The point which backs this up further is that besides separating the verses you’ve quoted from their historical context, you’ve made absolutely no mention of other verses which may run counter to the image of Islam you’re trying to put forward. Funny how you didn’t mention verses about ‘to me my religion and to you, yours’, as well as the verse about Jews, Christians and Sabians being entitled to life in heaven as well.

   But that might require too much thought. How about we break it down even further and look at the verses SURROUNDING one of the ones you’ve plucked out of thin air (and used lots of ‘…’ as well, interesting how these bits must have been lost in all the dots you used to pick out the most interesting parts of the verse to prove you point. Lets look at 2:192 which is part of the 2:190- (if you’re going to ask people to read on from a certain point, it might be advisable to check that the verses you’re asking them to read actually back up your argument rather than contradict it) set you provided: “But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful”, or even 2:193 “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression”. Even though the second verse I put up their told the Muslims to fight on in defense of their small community until ‘faith in God’ prevails, this is immediately followed by the command for their to be no more hostility if they cease their aggression (and not necessarily convert to Islam). Hell, for the fun of it and just to really balance things out further, why not include the verse before the verse 2:191 you quoted before: 2:190: “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors”. So in fact if we read the verse RIGHT BEFORE the 2:191 you quoted as being so ‘clear and explicit’, we actually now find out that the command to fight against that particular group at that time was on the basis of the Muslim community being attacked first! Wonderful what a little bit of context does.

   The 9:31 (once again this is not the exact verse you have quoted, rather you’ve quoted 9:33), verse is also interesting. Keep reading past 9:33 and we find out what the Qur’an is criticising about other religions: 9:34 “O ye who believe! There are indeed many among the priests and anchorites (*another translation I have seen says this means rabbis and monks*), who in falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the Way of Allah: announce unto them a most grevious penalty-“. Uh-oh, sounds less like a case of ‘your religion sucks, lets kill you’, than ‘don’t let your religion be corrupted by religious leaders who are only looking to line their own pockets’ (like a lot of things, this is in fact a lesson which Muslims themselves are not paying enough attention to).

   Listen if you’ve got a problem with Muslims and they way they carry on, thats fine. To be perfectly honest a lot of Muslims are absolute dicks at the moment. Once you start straying into the realm of scripture though its a fairly open ballgame. As barry pointed out, there are a lot of ‘contradictions’ in the Qur’an, or at the very least verses and passages which don’t seem to fit together (he’s listed quite a few). I myself however do not see them as contradictions, as this can lead human beings to be a bit lazy and toss the whole thing out together. Instead we have to look deeper at these verses, studying much more closely their historical context (as many verses were revealed in response to specific events or questions from the community at the time) as well as how they can gel with other verses throughout. This is one of the things which has always drawn me about the Qur’an, as it actually does require Muslims to use their brains to figure out what is going on (though too many couldn’t be bothered).

   If you’re able to read Indonesian I highly recommend the small booklet Quraish Shihab put out in response to Wilders’ youtube video called “Ayat-Ayat Fitna”. I posted it a few comments back i think as its downloadable for free. He’s a guy who well and truly knows his tafseer chops.

6. dewaratugedeanom says:

   August 17, 2008 at 4:17 pm

   barry prima said

   You wasted your time.Read it with humility and with heart,from a part of your being that you pschoanalytical maps cannot chart.It will reveal itself to you only then.even if only a little.

   Just give us one good reason why this should be read with humility and with heart instead of a critical mind. What you are asking boils down to an act of faith just because someone stood up and proclaimed that god has spoken to him via an angel. Maybe this could be done 1400 years ago but I’m afraid that in this day and age educated people no longer fall into traps like this.

7. Shloka says:

   August 17, 2008 at 6:47 pm

   djoko,

   I think I responded in a previous post that I simply can’t read Indonesian, if you’ve got an English, Hindi or Bengali version of “Ayat Ayat Fitna”, please tell me and I’d be happy to read it. I sincerely promise to read it. 🙂

   Again returning to the verses you mentioned, I’m going to be pro Islam for once and admit that the bit ” to you your religion, to me mine” is definitely more tolerant than Biblical beliefs which until recently held that salvation is only possible through Christ, and the Popes till recently held that unbaptised babies will go to limbo instead of heaven.Again, there are verses in the Koran which do guarantee a place in Heaven to Jews, Sabians and Christians. However, having read many of my posts, you might have realised that I’m not a Jew, Christian or Sabian so those positive stuff emphatically don’t apply to me. I’m a polytheist, an idolatress and I’m unapologetic about it. In my nearly 17 years of life, I’ve done little harm and little good. I don’t see why God should judge me harshly due to my polytheism. Not only in situation of wars, but in other situations as well, the Koran says stuff like, “And the whoremonger shall marry none but a whore or an idolatress; and the whore shall none marry but an adulterer or an idolater;” Why? What is the justification for this? Would you like it if I started a faith which claimed that a believer in Allah is worthy of marrying only an adulteress or whoremonger, never mind how noble a person he is? I guess you’d be offended. Thats’ just how I feel.

   And again returning to Prophet Mohammed’s (PBUH) wars. You and other Muslims like you have repeatedly pointed out to me that his wars were in self defence, and maybe that viewpoint is correct. I believe in your last post addressed to me in the thread on Ahmadiyya you compared Muslim wars to countries like America maintaining an armed force and waging wars only in self defence. If I accept that explanation, and the fact that Muslims were troubled by the Meccans so they finally retaliated to those polytheists, I can compare it to the issue of the Taliban attacking U.S.A. on September 11, and so America attacking Afghanistan. I guess that’s a valid comparison to you? That also follows the rules of just war. Afghanistan like any other Muslim nation, has plenty of mosques. What if the Americans had destroyed every single one of those mosques chanting, “Truth has come and falsehood departed…” wouldn’t that be unfair? President Bush, for all his supposed flaws, has stated many times that Islam is a religion of peace. Wouldn’t it be wrong if Bush decided to specifically bomb every single one of Afghanistan’s mosques?IMO, Prophet Mohammed transgressed the limits of a war in self defence when he destroyed Mecca’s 360 idols.

   Remember a certain justin et’s comments of “nuking Mecca”? Fanatic Muslims should be destroyed if they pose a threat to the world, but should Mecca and Kaaba, which millions of Muslims revere, be destroyed as well? Likewise, should the 360 idols, which thousands of Meccans had great faith in and emotional attachment to be smashed too?

   Hoping for your response and a translation of Ayat Ayat Fitna. Thank you.

8. barry prima says:

   August 17, 2008 at 9:32 pm

   Shloka:
   Thanxs for your sincere attempt to show me how to be a good muslim,or even what
   Balinese hindu or Buddhist cosmology has to say the the world works ,even though you are non of these things yourself and have never looked at them in terms other than those which originate from your own cultural conditioning..

   My Islam is not imaginary,not are my ideas or intepretation of the quran.I am not meraly espousing my `opinion’ my ideas are consistent with hundredsof years of Islamic enquiry. In fact if you know anything about the history of Islam in Indonesia,beging from the pioneers the wali songo,and some of its most influential thinkers :Hamza Fanzuri, Siti Jenar,Pak Subuh, Sunan Kalidjaga etc that’s how a large section of the muslim world,consciously or not, to some degre or another,has always understood islam.
   Nor is this a product of cross fertilisation with Hindu/Buddhist culture,the pioneers of Universal Islam Ibn Arabi,Al HAllaj, Jallaludin Rumi,Abdul Qhadir Jillani were all products of homogenous and orthodox islamic socieites.

   Every religon has an exoteric and esoteric element,lahir and batin as we call it.When there is a balance between the two,you have religous stabilty.The quran too has outward an inward realities ,both are valid,but both are dependendent on the other in an act of balance.
   It serves your purpose quite well,to limit the totality of Islam to a literal and black and white level,using the culture of Whabbiism as your yardstick,even though in the context of the full history of Islam it has only been a marginal force.
   You choose to ignore a whole culture of Islam as it doesnt serve your prejudices in the same way.

   However, having read many of my posts, you might have realised that I’m not a Jew, Christian or Sabian so those positive stuff emphatically don’t apply to me. I’m a polytheist, an idolatress and I’m unapologetic about it. In my nearly 17 years of life, I’ve done little harm and little good. I don’t see why God should judge me harshly due to my polytheism.

   Stop sniffling soft boy,youre wet behind the ears,expecting god to feel sorry for your poor white ass.I would guess youre a product of the middle class,properbly public school education?
   You mistake your sentimentality and cowardice for humility ,you mistake truth for political correctness
   You expect god to reveal himself to you on your terms,rather than tryingto understand him for the way he is.Death ,destruction,tsunmais,are all part of life,deal with it.Instead of tryingto figure out what it all means,youre trying to fit it into a moral framework,that is intself illusionary.You expect gods totality(which is outside the time/space continum(he he i like that)outside the 5 elements and duality) to fit into your small brain, (even though youre not using 95% of it )

   Also you forgot to finish the Quranic ayat which is not limited to jews,sabians and chrisitans. `whosover belives god and the last day for them shall be their reward with their lord.’
   As i mentioned in the last post,there is whole semantic field,a whole universe within one line,who is god,how can we believe in him,what is the last day?You only see in that verse what youre preconcieved and limited intepretation of the basics allows.You erect a house of cards,in the hope that it will be easily be blown away and then think youre the big bad bad wolf. To an ISlamic Mystic,the verse illuminates a whole reality based on his understanding of what the roots terms signify that is completely different to yours..

   And the whoremonger shall marry none but a whore or an idolatress; and the whore shall none marry but an adulterer or an idolater;” T

   The word whoremonger has no equivalent in arabic,nor does the quran even use the word whore in this sentence.Just another display of your stretching of language to satisfy your rancour.
   Anyway this nothing but good old fashion common sense ,dont marry anak ayam.I think all the ex-pats on this forum,however much they despsise Islam will wholeheartedly agree with this part of the quran.Again you ignore the context,Muhammed had just created a new civilisation,in the moment of consolidation you do not fratenise again with elements that will compromise eveything you have worked for?It just plain common sense.

9. Shloka says:

   August 17, 2008 at 10:00 pm

   barry prima,

   Here are the verses Quran 24:3, Al Noor(The light), Verse 3

   These are the translations by some of the most famous translaters:

   Pickthal The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers.
   Arberry The fornicator shall marry none but a fornicatress or an idolatress, and the fornicatress — none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolator; that is forbidden to the believers.
   Shakir The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.
   Khalifa The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
   Hilali/Khan The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah and the adulteress none marries her except an adulterer or a Muskrik (and that means that the man who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan or idolatress) or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer, or a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater, etc.) And the woman who agrees to marry (have a sexual relation with) a Mushrik (polytheist, pagan or idolater) or an adulterer, then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah (female polytheist, pagan, or idolatress, etc.)). Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Monotheism).
   H/K/Saheeh The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.
   If they’re right- I and millions of Buddhists,Balinese Hindus, Red Indians and all are fit only to marry adulterers. We’re as bad as adulteresses without commiting adultery.
   Maybe you’re right and Pickthall, Arberry et al with their years of learning are wrong…

   Oh and many Buddhists don’t believe in the last day, they believe in reincarnation. Till the 19th century, many Jews also believed in “gilgul” or reincarnation.

10. barry prima says:

    August 17, 2008 at 11:11 pm

    “It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it.”

    And truimph he did,the proof is in the pudding.There is nothing left of pagan saudi civilization.Muhammed was clearing the skeletons out of the closet by destroying the 360 idols(i dont know if that figure is correct,but if it is,it symbolises a full revolution).I dont see the Saudis crying about this,they appreciate he did them a favour.Their is no room for your kind of sentimentalism in the world of the bedouin.

    THe previaling religous and cultural norms were inhumane,even if youre not a muslim you would agree with that.I cant see what youre complaining about here.

    In war situation you have to be a warrior,you dont look back,you dont compormise.Muhammeds mission was carried out in a culture of chivalry,to gain the love of the Bedouin you have to gain his respect first by showing your worthiness as a warrior.
    In a war ,you do the job properly,otherwise it comes back to kick your ass.Doing the job properbly does not mean being a barbarian and killing randomly,muhammed displayed many acts of forgivness and compassion,when they served the purpose.Equally he had to be firm with traitors and enemies in other situations.

    You just have to look at the example of Moorish Spain,the muslims didnt tidy up properly.they allowed a small group of people in one cave to remain,from that small enclave the seeds of the spanish inquisition were sown that finally toppled a 700 year civilization.

    Dude you need to understand the meaning of words such as idolaters,muslims,islam and their nuances in arabic before you even begin to take on your jihad..A word has many many nuances in arabic,not the same literal one dimenson it has in English.
    If you want to open your mind instead of burying deeper into your pit of hatered i suggest you learn a bit about the language in which what you criticize is written.Untill then dont expect to be taken seriously.

    Here is some suggested reading:
    Ethico religous concepts in the Quran:Topshikio Izutsu
    The Meaning and End of Religion: A New Approach to the Religious Traditions of Mankind by Wilfred Cantwell Smith
    The tao of Islam:sachiko Murata.

    Just for the sake of objectivity ,all these authors are not muslim.

    The word Islam ,in its most expansive and elementary sense signifies not a particular religon as opposed to other religions but a hal(condition).That is how muhammed understood it,and that is what it meant 1400 years ago.Of course it has meaning in relationship to other religons as they were practised at the time,but we should not let that distract from what it means essentially and why the concept of one god,seemingly obvious as it seems, had to be so dramatically dissemnated at that point in history..

    When the deeper significance of the semantics of the quran is comprehended the ayat could be understood as meaning the truth will prevail over false religions (ie anthing that is not practising submission to god)False religion =Whaever take humanity away from the reality of its relationship to the absolute.Sometimes yes that could mean other religions if they have assumeda certain charecter,but equally it could mean the so called religion of islam itself as it is understood by its followers.The muslims have had their ass kicked over the years,we just take that as sign that there is something wrong with us or we have to reevaluate our condition.No point shouting unfair,youre not in the playground now.
    At this point in history false religion is not Christianity or any other faith ,it is Aethism,materilaism,Liberalism and American imperialism.

11. barry prima says:

    August 17, 2008 at 11:32 pm

    Oh and many Buddhists don’t believe in the last day, they believe in reincarnation. Till the 19th century, many Jews also believed in “gilgul” or reincarnation.

    Have you ever heard of the age of mapa or kali?do u know who maitreya buddha is ?

    Hindu and buddhist both share the cylical view of history as does islam.According to Islam,Muhammed is the last prophet as this is the last epoch of history,which is very consistent with the vedantic faiths.

    Reincarnation is understood in many ways,it is not a simple migration from one body to another over and over again.I am not arguing for or against reincarnation a thats another issue.,but i do know tHis is a superficial view which is outwardly upheld by Buddhist and hindus in the same way as heaven of 70 virgins and a hell of pus and snakes is upheld by islamic theoligans.It is maintained for its inherent psychological and symbolic value to society.Japanese Buddhism,even had to develop a whole morbid pantheon of heaven and hell,that was much worse than the semitic one ,because it was necessary.

    Your day of judgment is the day you die.
    `whosoever has done an iota of good he wil lsee it then,whosover has done an iota of evil will see it then’>Not too far removed from the karmic recollection of h+b is it?
    The question is one of accountabiltiy or a day of reckoning ,which is very mucha part of the religous world of the hindu/buddhist.

    Buddhist also believe in the bardo, which is the equivalent of the barzakh in Islam,the transitory phase betwen one life and the next.

    Both Buddhsit and Hindus can very easily be integrated within that sentence as they have belive in a transcendental reality,even though it appears to be non theistic.
    As i say in my previous post god has a personal and impersonal charecter,however you choose to make a relationship to him that is how he will relate to you.

12. Shloka says:

    August 17, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    barry prima,

    Alhamdullih! We finally reach an agreement!

    Mohammed did destroy 360 idols in Mecca and both of us agree that he is the perfect example for all mankind. We also know that the Saudis gladly recognize the favor he did to them.

    Of course- the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Let us look at some of the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia today. Anyone leaving Islam is legally executed, in 2002 a school caught fire and the Saudi religious police let 15 innocent schoolgirls burn to death as they weren’t wearing hijab, women going out without hijab are jailed, and Saudi Arabia has already executed an Egyptian “sorcerer” and is all set to execute a supposed “witch” Fawza Falih for turning a man impotent with her “spells.”

    Yes at this point false religion as you say is indeed American imperialism. Problem is, these American imperialists consider the situation in Saudi today inhuman, and many nations agree. We also know how 18 of the 19 hijackers on 9\11 were from Saudi, don’t we, or was that a Jewish plot?

    So now, America can rightly attack Saudi right? And as you say, the job cannot be partially done or it comes back to kick your ass, so the Mosque at Mecca has to be nuked. And wicked Bush is being way too soft, he keeps on praising Islam and the Koran. No, he should smash the Kaaba repeating Mohammed’s immortal words- “truth has won and falsehood disappeared…”

    Today, wars are allowed in self defence, but destroying another’s holy sites is against the spirit of just war, but who cares? If Mohammed(PBUH) did it, we all should. 🙂

13. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    August 17, 2008 at 11:54 pm

    @ barry prima

    Forget about day of judgement and how many Gods other worshipped. Let’s get to the point which bother everyone.

    Do you think our beloved Prophet Mohammad pbuh did have a sexual relationship with an underage girl, and in your opinion was he doing that to show it is halal? If not, is this a Jewish conspiracy to discredit our beloved Mohammad pbuh? Your take on this will benefit moslem and non-moslem alike?

14. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    August 18, 2008 at 12:03 am

    @ Shloka

    Who cares what the Arabs had done to their own people and the American. The American are just as bad. It takes two to tango. The Asians aren’t at war with them, but they are both knocking on our door. Both these are troublemakers. You should be worried about reducing oil in your curry recipe as Indian curries tend to be greasier than the Ceylonese.

15. barry prima says:

    August 18, 2008 at 1:44 am

    Shokla,
    You dont seem to be very knowlkedgable about anything.You want be a defender of the polytheist without knowing what they belive.You want to Insult the quran and find fault in it,but dont know any arabic.You want to be ironic,but cant see it when its used by others.
    You post vociferously on an indonesian forum,specifically the part related to religon,but dont know the first thing about islam in indonesia , nor can u speak Indonesian.

    What exactly are you qualified to Argue about?

    I feel i am casting my pearls on the neck of a swine

    Everytime your ignorance of the subject matter is exposed you jump to another argument.I have no wish to defend Whaabism or Saudia Arabian society as it is now.It doesnt have a lot to do with Islam as far as im concerned.When Buddhist monks in Thailand molest boys,i dont put the blame on Buddhism.

    The fornicator shall marry none but a fornicatress or an idolatress, and the fornicatress — none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolator; that is forbidden to the believers

    You really are trying your best to be danmed by Allah arent you?You see bogey men in the quran in each verse ,infusing a meaning that isnt there,even on a literal level.

    The verse does not say,an idolatror must marry an adultress only.It says if youre an adultrer or adultress you are forbidden to the believer,which is somthing completely different.

    You convenniently ignore the concluding statement :
    All this is forbidden to believers.

    So this injunction is directed to the believers,the idolatros can do whatever you want.
    This is the following verse:

    4. And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony – They indeed are evil-doers –

    How do you bring four witness unless you are absolutely shameless?

    The quran Balances itself out,this Surah starts off harsh against adultery,then it comes across even harsher on those who accuse others of Adultery without proof which is impossible unless someone confesses, and ask for the punishment.

    Even then a women came to Muhammed and confessed to adultery,he ignored her and turned his face away twice,pretending he didnt hear.It was only the thrid time that he accepted her confession and imposed the stoning,which she voluntarily subjected herself to.

    In this particular example we can see all we need to know the application of injunctions in the quran.

16. Shloka says:

    August 18, 2008 at 10:04 am

    @ barry prima,

    I may not be very “knowlkedgable” as you say, but I do know how to spell in English.

    Its not knowlkedgable, its knowleageable. Again its not aethism, its spelt atheism.Not materilaism, its materialism. First learn to spell, before criticising others’ on their knowledge or lack of it. 🙂

    How do I believe that you have such superior knowledge of the Koran, Arabic, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity, when you seem incapable of spelling correctly? Rupert Bear and I can spell correctly, and we know a very famous Muslim who knows Arabic and can read the Koran in Arabic- Osama bin Laden.Please state your academic qualifications in comparative theology.

    Why do I need to know Indonesian to know about Indonesian Islam? I’ve read enough on the subject. I’ve read the Koran in its English translation. How many of the Koran’s readers are Arabic? There are millions of Muslims in Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa, Iran to name just a few places, who far outnumber the Arabic speaking Muslims. The total literacy rate in the Muslim world stands at a measly 40%, so 60% of Muslims can’t read and write in any language, let alone Arabic. As a Muslim, you believe that God spoke to Moses, Jesus and finally Mohammed. Well, if God can speak to Moses in Hebrew, and to Mohammed in Arabic He’s obviously bilingual. So His message should come across clearly in English as well, right?

    Or let us look at the country which is the most fluent in Arabic- Saudi Arabia, we all know the situation there. 🙂 Countries like Indonesia, which don’t know Arabic seem to be in much better shape.

    Oh and Thailand and Saudi Arabia. Did you know that the total exports of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, U.A.E. and Bahrain( mostly oil) is just $ 430 billion? Buddhist Thailand alone exports goods and services worth $ 429 billion. So the Thais could’ve got a few planes like the Saudi hijackers to crash them into WTC, even if the Red Indians couldn’t, right?

    Of course, regarding the fornicator bit, it seems that we’ve reached an agreement there as well. The verse says that a Muslim fornicator cannot marry another believer, but obviously the morals of an idolater are so low that he or she will marry a Muslim only if the Muslim is guilty of adultery.

    Now please explain Aluang Anak Bayang’s point, about why the Prophet had sexual relations with an underage girl. He wants to know if that is a Jewish conspiracy.

17. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    August 18, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    @ Shloka

    Spelling mistakes and typos do not invalid a logic as long as the 1st and last letters are the same. Probably a lame attempt to void his responses. We are not English speakers; and usually we don’t go over what were typed.

18. barry prima says:

    August 18, 2008 at 5:14 pm

    I dont feel the need to check eveything i write,as far as im aware im not wriiting an academic essay that is top be marked on grammar and punctuation.I am assuming you are intelligent enough to grasp the point i am making.Im from a punk rock background,bad spelling and grammar are a token of pride for me .The bastardisation of language when it suits our purpose is something you are very capable of yourself,especially when it comes ot the quran,so you should know where im coming from.I like to my think my complete disregard on occasion for the rules of the english language is the big up yours to School system.

    Besides for your information ill have you know that i in fact orignnally hail from the country of her royal majesty Queen Elizabeth.

    The verse says that a Muslim fornicator cannot marry another believer,

    Maybe you can spell well,but you obviously cant understand anything .You have quoted the same verse so many times and still come up with a meaning that isnt there?

    It says a fornicator should marry another fornicator or an idolatrous..wether muslim or idolatror.The idolatror of course has a choice in the matter she isnt compelled to marry a muslim fornicator.Again you conveniently choose not to explore the context in which a stement like that becomes meaningful.

    we know a very famous Muslim who knows Arabic and can read the Koran in Arabic- Osama bin Laden.Please state your academic qualifications in comparative theology.

    The average Arab is about as qualified to intepret the quran academically as the average englishman from a councill estate is to intepret Ulyess by James Joyce. This does not mean you have to be a scholar to benefit from al Quran, as it reveals itself according to what you expect from it and what you bring to it.If you bring hatred towards it,it will give you hatred right back.

    However if you do not have faith in it and want to engage in Scholary debate,at least have some scholary credentials in the field .The average muslim does not have pretensions to knowing how to disect the quran ,he will refer points of contradiction/conflict to the ulema for clarification,in the same way the average Buddhsit will with regared to his scripture.

    I am as aware as you that muslims get it wrong as the non muslims.Earlier in this forum a muslim said there are 72 sects in Islam,which is rubbish.the term 70 or 72 denotes innumerable(unfixxed quantity) in classical Arabic not a fixed number.

    Oh and Thailand and Saudi Arabia. Did you know that the total exports of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, U.A.E. and Bahrain

    YOu have now changed from your attack of the quran (which has been exposed as rather pathetic and uneducated) to an outright attacking of Muslim people and countries,which is something different altogether.You have what in Buddhsit terms would be calleda monkey mind.

    You have fought as a champion of the Buddhist faith,when your knowledge of it ,it as superficial as it is of Islam.You have constantly refered to economic backwardness and social instability in Muslim countries,whilst ignoring that some of the poorest and unstable countries in the world (Cambodia,Burma,Tibet )etc are Buddhist.When Thai villagers sell their daughters into prostitution because they think that is the karma of the child,a muslim would be stupid to attribute that to Buddhism.That is the level of the logic that you seem to work on though.

    The more you talk the more your true feelings are becoming apparent.You are no Buddhist,you have a heart full of hatred and illusiuon.This is what the quran has to say about you:
    `But as fo the infidels,their deeds are as it were massed darkness upon some fanthomless sea,which is overwhelmed with billow topped by billow,topped by cloud:Darkness on darkness piled!So that when a man putteth forthhis hand well nigh can see it not.Yea,the man for whom Allah doth not cause light,nol ight at all has he.’

    Now please explain Aluang Anak Bayang’s point, about why the Prophet had sexual relations with an underage girl. He wants to know if that is a Jewish conspiracy.

    I think Mas Aluang has refered to his Paedophilic (thats properly spelt wrong)obsession in almost every post he has made.If he hasent found the answer to that question yet id be very suprised.

19. barry prima says:

    August 18, 2008 at 6:52 pm

    Just give us one good reason why this should be read with humility and with heart instead of a critical mind.

    The Quran ask you itself to approach it critcally,with reference to logic. With a little regard for context and an understanding of historical patterns, even on that level it has a consistency to it. However to get to the spirt of the Quran relies on a different methodlogy,which is based on excercising faculties which are more subtle and thus complicated.

    Your main problem with the quran seems to be on moral grounds. Morality in society is relative and contextual .In the great faiths is based ultimately on transcendtal or celestial realities,which are invisible to most of us for the most part,and not how they appear in relation to the every day life of human beings.
    Faith exist because people have at some point glimpsed a vision from the hidden realm.They understand that they are part of something infinite,not just the sum of their own parts.

    Faith is necessary in the understanding of any phenomena,ie belief that the thing being studied is knowable.Only an immersion into the quran with faith that it potentially has some value(and not necessarily an islamically understood one),can lead to a profound understanding of it.

    By placing your faith in youre own mental conjecture (even though youre not using 90% of your brain,nevermind the other deeeper levels of emotional an spiritual intelligence, which you may not even be aware of) you are missing out on all that heavenly glory!

    Maybe this could be done 1400 years ago but I’m afraid that in this day and age educated people no longer fall into traps like this.

    Oh the arrogance.Educated,as in university educated.Like that gives you a head start in an areas of (the spirit) which is primarily the domain of religous systems,but which your precious university education can teach you very little about.

    The Arabs believed in Muhammed,not because they were thick,because it made alot more sense than the pagan belief system it stood against, with all its superstitions and barbarity.¬That is what is meant by `falsehood has been exposed and truth has been made clear.’ In that particular situation ,it was.

    There has been 1400 years of critical evaluation of the quran,nothing that western enquiry of the last 100 or so years, has not been investigated by muslims themselves.
    Why do u think that europe even has access to its own Greeco/Roman heritage?It is because Moorish muslim Spain made great pains to rediscover and archive it ,in the hope of bringing gretaer clarity to their own understanding of islam viz a viz:Ibn Rushud,Avicienna ,Ibn Arabi.Al Ghazzali.

    The moors and other Islamic intellectuals and mystics reached a very different conclusion to the weastern intellectuals because they always approached the absolute from the point of humility.Traditional man approached himself from the perspective of the universe,rather than appraoching the universe from the point of view of man.

20. Shloka says:

    August 18, 2008 at 8:27 pm

    barry prima,

    May I ask you the same questions ?
    As you frequently comment on Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism among other stuff:

    1) Do you know Hebrew, Aramaic, ancient Greek and Latin before commenting on Christian beliefs?
    2) Do you know Sanskrit before commenting on Hinduism?
    3) Do you know Pali and Prakrit before commenting on Buddhism?

    Have you read the Gita, Bible and Tripitakas in the languages in which they were originally written, before analyzing their similarities and differences with Islam?

    Of course Buddhist nations have their problems, like Christian nations. Actually, I prefer many Christian nations like Australia or Netherlands’ to Buddhist nations. Do you know that in Iran, the Ayatollah Khomeini reduced the girls’ age of marriage to 9 years, and made it legal for a man to have sex with baby girls as long as he doesn’t penetrate? Muslims don’t just criticise other faiths, they prefer to bomb them. Thats’ why you won’t find Muslims in Indonesia simply criticising Australians, they prefer to let their actions do the talking. Thats why Muslim Bali bombers’ killed 88 Australian tourists in Bali. Actions speak louder than words, what say? 😉

    As for your argument that I quote out of context:

    Koran Sura IX.5: “Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them …” These words are usually cited to show what fate awaits idolaters. Well, what of the context? The words immediately after these just quoted say, “and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Ah, you might say, you have deliberately left out the words that come after those. Let us quote them then, “If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.” Surely these are words of tolerance, you plead. Hardly: they are saying that if they become Muslims then they will be left in peace. In fact, the whole sura, which has 129 verses (approximately 14 pages in the Penguin translation by Dawood), in other words, the whole context, is totally intolerant; and is indeed the source of many totalitarian Islamic laws and principles, such as the concepts of Jihad and dhimmis, the latter proclaiming the inferior status of Christians and Jews in an Islamic state. All our quotes from the Arabic sources in Part One also, of course, provide the historical context of raids, massacres, booty, and assassinations, which make it crystal clear that real bloody fighting is being advocated.
    First the idolaters, how can you trust them? Most of them are evildoers (IX. 8); fight them (IX. 12, 14); they must not visit mosques (IX. 18); they are unclean (IX. 28); you may fight the idolaters even during the sacred months (IX. 36). “It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin after it has become clear they are people of hell-fire.” (IX.113) So much for forgiveness! Even your parents are to be shunned if they do not embrace Islam: IX. 23 “O you who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you takes them for friends, such are wrong-doers.” In other words if you are friendly with your parents who are not Muslims, you are being immoral.

    What am I and others to make of the Koran? The whole thing deals with Mohammed’s (PBUH) wars, wars and more wars. Is Buddha’s or Christ’s life like that? The Buddha was a Prince, he could’ve easily assembled an army like Mohammed(PBUH) but he didn’t. Christ was crucified but never resorted to violence. Nor is Zarathrushtra founder of the Zoroastrian faith, Bahaullah of the Bahai faith etc military conquerors.

    You said that Mohammed did a great thing by breaking 360 idols as the conditions in Pre Islamic Arabia were inhuman. Well, the conditions in post Islamic Arabia seem just as inhuman, but you don’t see what that has to do with Islam. As Saudi is a self proclaimed Islamic theocracy, based on Shariah laws and religious police(Mutawwa) and leaving Islam is legally punished by death unlike Turkey or Indonesia I don’t see what else except Islam is responsible. The non Muslim guest workers who aren’t even allowed to build their own temples and mosques? As Mohammed is the perfect man- don’t you think that Bush should follow his glorious example, break the Mecca and Medina mosques and the kaaba? Just like the Saudis appreciate Mohammed’s favour, after Bush clears all the skeletons and women can drive, polygamy and triple talaq is banned maybe the Saudis will feel he did them a favor as well?

21. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    August 18, 2008 at 10:17 pm

    @ Chee Bye Barry Prima,

    It is obvious that the English had not banished all their retards to Oz land. You will need to come up with new original recipe before trying to sell kebabs to the Javanese. Kebab taste may be new to you but we’ve been there done that. Ask yourself why Islam in Indonesia is different – No cunnilingus on pre-teen kids to start with! A white boy (if you are one) with Punk Rock background (as you claimed) trying to sell us kebabs, you are a joker. 🙂

22. barry prima says:

    August 18, 2008 at 11:02 pm

    1) Do you know Hebrew, Aramaic, ancient Greek and Latin before commenting on Christian beliefs?
    2) Do you know Sanskrit before commenting on Hinduism?
    3) Do you know Pali and Prakrit before commenting on Buddhism?

    I do not quote the scriptures of these great faiths to try and make them say something they dont,and i would be deferent towards someone who knew these languages when i did make an attempt to understand them.
    I am not going to pursue a line of de-fault arguent where i look for every concievable wrong i can find in Buddhism and Buddhist societies to make my point.Im not weak in my own faith,nor do i have hatred for the faith of others.

    That is the difference…i could go forever trying to make a horse drink from water..showing up your ignorance on every single point you make..
    but ill let you fight your own prejudices from now on..ISlam is a problem for you,not for me. You will spend you life life trying to move a mountain,and realise afterward you put it there yourself..
    You keep making the same mistakes over and over again..jumping from one ayat to another…like an idiot trapped in eternal karmic wheel of suffering…

    Ill let somebody else have a go,..any takers?Properbly not,the level of sophistication you have shown in your rants(and its evident undertones of hatred) doesnt really make you worth selling kebabs to .

    ALunag Nak:

    If i was in the business of selling kebabs i wouldnt invest in the third world..As for my Background,well ill continue to let your assumptions guide your clever commentaries.You can even imagine im a paeodphile,convert terrorist and start every response post to me from that assumption.Ill try my best to entertain you.

    Islamic theocracy
    Saudia Arabia is not a theocracy ,its an aristocracy,that is itself agaisnt the principles of Islam.

23. Aluang Anak Bayang says:

    August 18, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    ALunag Nak:

    If i was in the business of selling kebabs i wouldnt invest in the third world..As for my Background,well ill continue to let your assumptions guide your clever commentaries.You can even imagine im a paeodphile,convert terrorist and start every response post to me from that assumption.Ill try my best to entertain you.

    Oh yeah .. Brown men always need to be taught. You better stick your colonialism mindset up your arse. State your agenda.

24. Shloka says:

    August 18, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    barry prima,

    Its not one particular faith society at all barry prima- indeed its about the other 80% of the world’s population which is non Muslim. There are Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Zoroastrians, Bahais, Wiccans, Unitarian Universalists and what not. Of course, there are Communist states like Cuba who I detest more than any faith. Barring those there are a significant number of atheists in practically every Western nation- be it U.K., France, the Nordic nations, Australia- you name it. The question is what effect do they have on the world? Isn’t the worth of a social system judged by its net effect?

    I’m not a Catholic, but 21st century Catholics, who’re roughly equal in number to Muslims, run very good educational institutions. Even Muslims in Bangladesh or Senegal prefer Catholic education for their kids. A group of fanatic Catholics didn’t bomb London trains, Madrid trains or Egypt’s Luxor. I’m at best benefited from their school system, at worst they do nothing to personally harm me. Likewise the Bahais, who’re dreadfully persecuted in Iran and Egypt. They don’t harm me, and I likewise don’t fear terrorism from them. Atheists in Sweden, England or France too( or anywhere else where atheism isn’t mixed with Communism) for all your criticism of their beliefs are a peaceful lot. They didn’t bomb London trains, or Paris, the Muslims did. Same for the materialists, they like to live a good life and while they don’t go out of their way to help others, they value their own life so don’t plant bombs to kill and incapacitate others.

    I might not be Christian but there’s little in Jesus Christ’s character which would repel a non believer. A non believer might call him a charlatan at worst, but one won’t have to elaborately defend him against charges of murder, paedophilia, rape, highway robbery, sex with daughter in law, genocide, iconoclasm, to name a few. Like Mohammed(PBUH) every Prophet has faced persecution, look at Bahaullah who proclaimed himself to be Mohammed’s(PBUH) successor. He was tormented by fundamentalist Muslims, but he didn’t write an entire book ordering his followers to fight, loot, kill, mutilate etc.

    Whats the point of authoring such a belligerent and contradictory book? As God is more perfect than human beings, His creation too should reflect that. Is God playing Russian Roulettes? No wonder so many people throw out the baby with the bathwater, and others turn to terrorism like the Al Queda or Jamiah Islamiah. Was God’s purpose to make humans life easier or to further complicate it? Imagine if the Indonesian Pancashila was like that. One line said murderers will be jailed, another said they’d go scot free- won’t people be confused? At least, shouldn’t God have chosen a less controversial character as last and greatest of His Prophets- without a list of crimes considered unacceptable by today’s world?

    If you say that Saudi Arabia isn’t a theocracy, its an aristocracy, established by the wicked American imperialists, what about Iran? Iranians chose Ayatollah Khomeini for themselves. Then women who go about unveiled are jailed, legal age of marriage is 9, men sit at the front of the bus, women at the back to name just a few. Oh and with your interest in stoning-the Iranian Government regularly stones adulteresses to death, we know that today’s human rights consider this unacceptable, and a divorce is sufficient, but who cares? As you said, Allah SWT approves of stoning, and thats’better than man made laws, correct? 😉

    And 7th century Saudi might be inhuman, but the Persian Zoroastrian Empire was a global superpower. The Zoroastrian King Cyrus had outlawed slavery 1000 years before Islam’s birth, while the Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Niger, Oman etc were the last to outlaw slavery, well into the 1990’s. Zoroastrianism’s founder Zarathrushtra too is someone with a pretty uncontroversial life.

25. barry prima says:

    August 19, 2008 at 12:49 am

    Shokla:

    You really are ranting and raving like the worst kind of mad mullah now..i notice youre comment is very long and from a distance appears to be the same as every other post youve made.Henceforth i have concluded its not worth reading.

    Looks like youre trying to convinve yourself,more than anyone else.

    Oh yeah .. Brown men always need to be taught. You better stick your colonialism mindset up your arse. State your agenda.

    You go from assuming im a brown man,who doesnt speak english as his first language to assuming im a white boy colonialist,better you keep you guessing in that case, its more entertaining.It would really upset the rule book,if i turned outot be chinese.

    My agenda is as ambigous as yours,in that perhaps it doesnt serve any particular purpose other than to entertain myself by attemtpting to sharpen the mind of the dullards..

26. Shloka says:

    August 19, 2008 at 10:19 am

    barry prima,

    Its you who rants and raves- I have no problem with anyone else in this world who doesn’t impose his or her values on me, mutilates or worse kills me or physically harm me.

    Thus unlike you, who dislikes atheists and materialists- I have no issues with either. A British atheist called Christopher Hitchens might write a couple of books criticising religion, but he doesn’t plot to bomb Heathrow Airport to kill innocents, the British Muslims did. Thankfully the plot was discovered before it could be carries out. A Dan Brown writing “The Da Vinci Code” may offend Christian sentiments, just like a Salman Rushdie whose “Satanic Verses” upsets Muslim sentiments. I have nothing against either of these authors, they don’t plot to kill me, nor do they force me to dress in a particular way. If I dislike either book, I won’t read them. 🙂

    I do have a problem with the Muslims who plot to kill anyone from the Japanese publisher of “Satanic Verses” who they managed to kill, to the Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who’s still in hiding.

    Likewise, I don’t have a problem with any guy who claims to be a Prophet as long as he doesn’t impose his views on me. Anyone can preach anything – narrate any fanciful story, at worst I won’t give him a hearing and walk away.

    Thus even if I don’t believe Jesus is God’s son, he’s a harmless guy. I do have a problem with someone who commits every despicable crime possible, and then claims to be from God.

    And really, what good has this contradictory book done? It apparently dislike slavery, but Muslim nations were the last to outlaw it. And whatever the merits of stoning, I don’t see an exodus of people from the non stoning, high % of atheists West, flock to Iran to settle down there- in fact there’s a movement in the opposite direction, from Iran to the West.

27. barry prima says:

    August 19, 2008 at 3:18 pm

    Like i said rant and rave..

    At a cursory glance I can see words like mutialte,kill,impose,stoning..im not going to dignify the post with a full reading.

28. Shloka says:

    August 19, 2008 at 4:13 pm

    barry prima,

    Alhamdullih!

    We agree once more. At a cursory glance at the Koran, Rupeert Bear and I came across the exact same words- mutilate, kill stone, impose yet unlike you, we went through the trouble of reading the whole thing. And what do we get in it- yet more mutilate, kill, stone, and impose. Then we go into further trouble and look into Muslim societies and what do we see? Imposition of dress codes on women in Islamic theocracies like Iran, imposition of Shariah laws on non Muslims, killing of apostates by the State, killing of innocents in global terrorism, stoning of adulteresses in Afghanistan or Iran etc. And then we have an Islamic apologist like you, narrating an incident of a woman in the Prophet’s time submitting herself to stoning, unlike the Bible NT where Jesus saves a woman from stoning.

    Shouldn’t we have done the same thing you did, when we were repelled by the words like mutilate, kill, stone etc in the Koran, and not dignified it with a full reading? 🙂

29. dewaratugedeanom says:

    August 19, 2008 at 4:34 pm

    @ barry prima

    Death and destruction are natures way of rebalancing things,the hindu balinese will be in complete agreement with me on that one.

    Death and destruction are nature’s way of rebalancing things as a cosmic phenomenon and a condition for renewal and evolution, not as a means to be used by one group of people to impose its specific ideology onto others and to turn the world into a uniformity bowing in the direction of a specific spot on the globe. According to Hindu/Balinese philosophy it is man’s task to promote harmony in and between the lower (bhur), the middle (bwah) and the upper (swah) levels of existence, not to wage jihad, establish a caliphate and turn those with other convictions into dhimmis who pay jizya.

    I am hindu and buddhist as well as a muslim.

    I wouldn’t say this too loudly if I were you. It might be misunderstood by some of your brothers and taken for heresy or even murtad. I’m sure you know the punishment for it. Are you prepared to undergo the fate of Al-Hallaj whom you mentioned somewhere, the Sufi teacher from Baghdad who by saying Ana Al-Haqq (I am the Truth) also expressed this holistic and mystic paradigm. They (the righteous Muslims) cut of his hands and feet, crucified and brutally tortured him to death.

    Faith exist because people have at some point glimpsed a vision from the hidden realm.They understand that they are part of something infinite,not just the sum of their own parts.

    I concur as long as this vision remains private and recognizes that others might have visions of a different nature and contents and refrains from shouting “truth has won and falsehood disappeared…”

    Besides for your information ill have you know that i in fact orignnally hail from the country of her royal majesty Queen Elizabeth.

    Judging from the typical Anglo-British aggressive and personally denigrating style I had suspicions already. But please bear in mind that the world has evolved and people from former colonies are no longer so easily bullied and bluffed into submission as in the heydays of white supremacy.

    Stop sniffling soft boy,youre wet behind the ears,expecting god to feel sorry for your poor white ass.I would guess youre a product of the middle class,properbly public school education?

    You may consider Shloka to be still wet behind the ears, at least she keeps to the facts and presents them in an orderly informative way without getting lost in speculative contemplations on the need of humility to understand the meaning of an ideology which causes nothing but havoc and trouble wherever it succeeded to impose itself.
    Couldn’t resist this one. Tit for tat.

30. dewaratugedeanom says:

    August 19, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    @ Shloka

    Allow me one small advice.
    Don’t get trapped into discussing Koranic verses with fanatics. They take an obsessive, almost perverse pleasure in analyzing, dissecting and twisting diverse interpretations and translations of the delusional so-called prophecies of a maniac who succeeded in manipulating and exploiting the fears, gullibility and guilt-feelings of ignorant people. Their aim is mind-control by reducing the span of attention to one dimension: the Koran.
    Stick with the facts and don’t give in to attempts to confuse the obvious. Islam is what Islam does.