Forgiveness
Jan 14th, 2008, in News, by PatungSome people are in a forgiving mood as former president Suharto nears death.
As Suharto nears death, with never-ending media reports of “condition improving”/”condition worsening”, and as his grave is prepared, suarapembaruan the question of the stalled but outstanding legal case against Suharto concerning stolen national assets has been repeatedly raised.
Hidayat Nur Wahid
Some, such as parliament speaker Hidayat Nurwahid, insist that Suharto continue to be prosecuted, given that Indonesia is a country based on law. tempo
Many others however, such as former “Reformasi” firebrand Amien Rais, recommend that the government and people forgive Suharto entirely, and end investigation and prosecution of him.
Amien Rais.
Reading out a statement in Yogyakarta on the 14th Amien said that in the early days many people did not criticise Suharto’s leadership or attempt to thwart his ambitions, to the point where he eventually became all-powerful, and therefore many people in the country bore some responsibility for Suharto’s deeds.
No-one dared say no to him.
Amien hoped that in future people would be more critical of their leaders, so that there would never again be a figure such as Soeharto, as well as his predecessor Soekarno. tempo
Meanwhile President SBY, standing in the middle as usual, asked everyone to just stop talking about the issue, at least until Suharto was dead waspada and the epitaphs had been written.
Let us stop all debates and arguments as they are unwise and improper at this time.
Suharto had done much good for the country, SBY said:
Despite some shortcomings, we still need to show him the respect and gratitude he deserves.
This article in bahasa Indonesia – Pengampunan Pak Harto.
106 Comments on “Forgiveness”
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WP says:
Achmad:
* Soeharto’s legacy presents an “inconvenient truth” “” lives for most Indonesians got better under him from 1966-1998. That’s most Indonesians, Oigal. You might not like him or how he did it, but the Iron Rice bowl delivered.
Yes, but that is more by the virtue of Indonesia’s abundant natural resource at that time rather than Soeharto’s shrewdness. Any president with sufficient sanity can achieve that. Given what we had in our forest and beneath our feet, we should have achieved a LOT more than the burnt out landscape, murky sky, and millions too many souls to feed that we now end up with. And THOSE are the legacy of Soeharto’s simplistic policy.
Pena Budaya:
If we can not drag him into trial in Indonesia, why not proposed his crime to be on trial by the ICC in the Hague (see http://www.insideindonesia.org/edit55/genoc.htm). I am wondering if this is possible.
IMHO, putting him on trial is a waste of time. It has been 10 years from the year of Reformation, and we have not learned a single trace of new real information about him. Perhaps because the traces we are looking for are simply not there?
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AndrewJ says:
Just like Sukarno’s crushing of the USI (1950), South Moluccas (1950), Celebes (1957) and so forth; so too Suharto’s slaughter of Javanese, Papuans, and Timorese are historical facts. What has not been on the public record has been the U.S. corporate assistance both of these men just like Megawati and Yudhoyono have enjoyed.
Papua is a perfect example, explored by Mobil & Chevron in 1936 when its vast gold & copper wealth was discovered; the Rockefeller empire in 1961 worked inside the U.S. White House to convince John F Kennedy that he had to have Papua traded to Indonesia to save America from communism in Asia & Australia. Although Kennedy kept asking why would anybody want West New Guinea, his White House advisers kept with-holding the information about the mineral wealth which the Rockefeller’s Freeport Sulphur was already in Papua laying claim to “it’s” mineral wealth. As soon as General Suharto stabalised his power base he sign the papers giving Freeport access to the minerals the Rockefeller’s had wanted since 1936.
Suharto’s economic miracle was not wealth, but converting Javanese culture to an American factory in the mid 1960s and using the Javanese military to harvest the mineral wealth of the neighbouring island nations for fulfillment of corporate America’s Marshall Plan dream.
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Cukurungan says:
But hey don’t blame the Bule..Indonesia has had 60 years to figure it out and it has not happened yet.
We do’nt blame Pak Harto either because Indonesian under Pak Harto 32 years is much much better than under Dutch Bule 350 years
Suharto had been crowned internationally as the most corrupted leader in the world (just google “the most corrupted leader and you will find Muhammad Suharto is always ranked as the first list i.e. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921295.html).
Ho ho ho.. do you think we believe this b*ll s**t, in our opinion Pak Harto is still considered as a Saint if his reputation is compared to the most Anglo/ Bule leaders . Please be reminded that the western civilization achievement is not without cost, it was at cost of namely “Transnational Corruption” (the bule stole and robber the wealth from other countries) Let me make it clear that in every brick and concrete to built infrastructure and palace in Holland, UK and France there was the wealth stolen by the bule leader from the third worlds. And please remember in every Jewel in Crown used by Queen and King of Holland and United Kingdom is not more and less than “Barang Curian” from the third world countries.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
All,
How ’bout some clarity and rigor in the arguments.
* The technocrats economic policies brought around a turnaround in:
– foreign investment
– hyperinflation down from 600 %
– Development policies – family planning, food security, rural infrastructure, and most of al
– life expectancy was up by 20 years ’67-1998.
– Per capita income up from $50 per capita in 1966- about $650 in 1996.I don’t think it was “Indonesia’s natural resources.” The economic phenomena of Dutch Disease can ruin an agricultural countries terms of trade, and has done in many oil-windfall countries. Indonesia mostly avoided it.
Pena Budaya, it’s true, there needs to be an official investigation into ’65 -’66, although some people think they already have the answers. Point is under SBY, there never, ever will be. It’d implicated his Dad-in-law, Sarwo Edhie.
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Oigal says:
Well little Timmy, See the trouble with your facts is one they were produced by a state controlled media and two whilst there was no doubt significant economic gains, you are spreading the myth that all of Indonesia got to enjoy them (except the dead ones of course which you seem to find an acceptable price to pay.)
I can only assume you have never travel outside of your sheltered little comfort zone and therefore you would have seen that the vast majority of Indonesia have not and did not share in this economic boom time party (actually thats not quite true, they did share their land, future, health but that another post).
Who signed what? where? when? Oh come on. Thats just plain nasty, most of the guilty still hold positions of power and it would be the height of foolishness to make anything more than generic statements. You and I both know truth is not a defence against the powerful in this country. However, if you would like to see such items try searching ETAN and you can make up your own mind on the truth or accuracy of such documents.
But let me take the time to tell you a true story: By a convoluted journey, I ended up in an orphanage in one of the provinces of your ecomomic dreamtime. There was a little boy there who grabbed my hand and would not release it hour after hour, never spoke, never cried, in the end I hand to gently pry his fingers off one by one. The nun said he is frightened ifyou leave the bad men will come back he has learnt rightly or wrongly they don’t come when a white face is around. As he taken away you could see the scars up and down the length of the back of his legs, where has father’s body had not completely covered him as his father was hacked to death as he tried to protect his son (mother was killed as well).
But hey just a minor percentage hey…
And that little Timmy is the end of our discussion, people like you who demean such suffering just to provoke a reaction or truely believe such things are ok as long as someone makes some money are beneath contempt.
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Rambutan says:
If we can not drag him into trial in Indonesia, why not proposed his crime to be on trial by the ICC in the Hague (see http://www.insideindonesia.org/edit55/genoc.htm). I am wondering if this is possible.
No, it’s not possible as the ICC does not work retroactively. It cannot deal with any crimes committed before 2002, when the Statute of Rome entered into force.
Achmad,
Ramos Horta’s statement that East Timor should forgive Suharto just shows that he and Xanana would do anything to make the big neighbour happy. Since they agreed to set up the ill-conceived Truth and Friendship Commission that basically is designed to whitewash TNI’s crimes in Timor and was consequently boycotted by the UN, they have lost a lot of credibility. -
Janma says:
Achmad, where did you get your population statistics?
1998 62.5 years…. 2000 67 years….(US census bureau’s international statistics)
2007 70.8 years….(CIA world fact book) (WHO puts it at 69.9)
I don’t see a 20 year increase….
I know that Soeharto did well as president on the economic side of things…. he and his economic advisers knew how to keep a grip on the macroeconomy…. but hon, that’s the job of the government! THAT is their responsiblity as a government of a country. To say that we should forgive soeharto for disappearing people, keeping them stupid and allowing Indonesia to be the playground of his friends and family just because he also did his job as president… (remember too that he had 30 years to do it all in, which helped stability and long term planning) doesn’t mean that we should allow him to skip out on the law.
I know he’s never going to jail. That doesn’t bother me…. but there must be due process… otherwise Indonesia will never get better. This bullsh*t butthole sucking attitude of who is rich is right needs to stop.
And how come Indonesia is forgiving without HIM ever considering apologizing!? -
Oigal,
State-controlled media ? Try World Bank, Asian Development Bank, Central Bureau of Statistics (granted, from the government), researchers from half-a dozen U.S. Universities, (Harvard, Cornell, UCLA etc), and Australia’s very own A.N.U. Look up the work of Terry Hull, A.N.U. demographer of Indonesia, along with the work of the likes of Masri Singarimbun from the Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta (neither one of them can be accused of being part of the Indonesia lobby).
All of them point to the statistics quoted above.
whilst there was no doubt significant economic gains
Not a small thing in a poor country. Granted, aggregated, development was noteven, Jakarta and Java benefited to a disproportionate degree. Can’t get around this inconvenient truth.
The single biggest killer and source of human rights abuse in Indonesia under Soeharto, and even today comes not from the state, secret police, TNI, but rather dirty water, mosquitos and poverty.
On ’65-66, statements like:
most of the guilty still hold positions of power and it would be the height of foolishness to make anything more than generic statements.
Try rocking up to the international human rights court, or any court and saying, “your honour, it would be the height of foolishness to make anything more than generic statements.” Oigal’s thrown not only legal, but academic standards out the window, reverting to, “this is just what I reckon, mate.”
If that’s what you reckon, fine, mate. But I think the memory of the fallen and their families deserve more. They deserve a much clearer picture of the truth.
Oigal, you’ve cited ETAN. Nice. Are they as credible as Walhi ?
Finally, on that child anecdoate, many of us can cite examples of how we’ve been touched by the harshness of the Suharto regime, careers ruined, voices silenced, dreams unfulfilled, and lives lived in fear. Not all of us do so to make cheap debating points.
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Janma and Others,
I’m not trying to justify human rights abuses or saying that its an acceptable price to pay.I’m saying that like it or not, life got better for most Indonesians and that’s why many people want to forgive him. I think it’s important to understand before you judge.
I never said we should forgive Soeharto. I’m trying to explain why many people want to. What are your staff, colleagues, workmates, neighbours saying — the older ones.
Also, and this is one to help Oigal. Are any of them fessing up to what happened in Bali in ’65-66 ?
* 20 year increase in life expectancy under the Soeharto regime. Common knowledge – BPS, research cited above. Try using ’65 as a baseline and see the increase.
On development: the government did better than most other developing countries in the world. Indonesia was more on part with countries in Africa and countries like Bangladesh than Malaysia and Singapore — so don’t compare there.
Two points: for the rakyat in Indonesia, “it’s the economy, stupid.” rice price, cooking oil, electricity, sending kids to school, the basics, dong.
Finally, the best argument against authoritarian government = economic growth comes from Amartya Sen, nobel prize winning economist. He says there’s just no evidence. Botswana was a democracy and saw similar growth rates to Indonesia during the same time.
Janma, hate to keep repeating myself, but Soeharto’s following the law. There might be a political problem or philosophical problem with the due process, but the AG’s ruled he was too sick to stand trial. He got a note from Mom to skip the exam. He’ll probably get one for the civil case as well.
Finally, must you use “disappearring people”? Can’t you stick to “abducting and murdering.”
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What’s wrong with disappearing? They disappeared didn’t they? No one knows whether they were dead or not, probably cause they just disappeared….
but that’s ok, cause after all Bob Hasan and his ilk had 20 years added to their lives…. so no problem… it all comes out in the wash.Janma, hate to keep repeating myself, but Soeharto’s following the law. There might be a political problem or philosophical problem with the due process, but the AG’s ruled he was too sick to stand trial. He got a note from Mom to skip the exam. He’ll probably get one for the civil case as well.
I’m not saying Soeharto is not following the law”¦ I’m also not saying that people shouldn’t forgive him”¦. forgive all you bloody want, but don’t say that as a token of the forgiveness he should be let off”¦.. or his case should be dropped. I don’t care if they drop the case because his sick”¦. I’m objecting to the attitude that the case should be dropped out of forgiveness!
Sorry to repeat myself”¦. but I thought maybe I was unclear. -
And what exactly should be forgiven? To date, Suharto was never convicted of any crimes and he never acknowledged any wrongdoings. I agree, the civil case should be continued. It will hopefully establish some facts about corruption under the Suharto regime.
However, if Yudhoyono, the parliament, the Indonesian people in general or whoever decide to forgive Suharto, what about the rest of his family, the cronies, the military leadership?? Forgiveness for them would be the next logical step. If we can forgive the person at the apex of power who ultimately bears responsibility for any wrongdoings, then others should be forgiven, too, no?? -
Janma,
“Disappeared” is an activist’s euphemism for “abducted and murdered.” Or just “abducted.”
From Encarta:
dis·ap·peared [ dìssə prd ]
plural noun
Definition:political victims: people who have been arrested by a regime that they opposed and whose subsequent fate is not known
[Late 20th century. Translation of Spanish desaparecido]
IMHO we shouldn’t invent a new word unless we need to. I’m also not really sure what “disappeared” means. What’s wrong with “abducted” ?
How many people were “disappeared” ? We know how many people are “disappeared” each year by mosquitos and dirty water. We know (roughly) how many women die in childbirth in villages because they don’t have proper care ?
Economic rights are a human rights issue.
_________________
By the way, Oigal.
I love how the facts are suddenly important when we’re talking about genocide of aboriginal Australians, but when it comes to Indonesia, it would be the “height of foolishness to speak in anything but generalities.”
Perhaps Indonesians, including those who died under the Soeharto regime, only deserve “generalities.”
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Nice try, TIMMY, I gave you the reference, you can look up any number of documents, orders, court rulings from there (I grant you ETAN has an agenda but it does not negate the documents from a variety of sources themselves).
Some of them making very interesting reading about very current people but none I would be silly enough to name here and put people I care about at risk.
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Achmad Sudarsono says:
Oigal,
See latest post in Opinion. I’m calling for a Vox Pop from working class Indonesians — from posters to talk to 3 people in their lives over the next week or so — preferably people who don’t normally get a hearing, on the subject of:
“Suharto – baik atau buruk”?
See what the people say, for better or worse. That might add some context to our chat.
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Mad,
I didn’t write abduction or murder because that would sound like I’m accusing Soeharto of abducting and murdering and that actually hasn’t been proven, so disappeared to me sounded less judgemental.
About the quiz the three local people….. probably they’ll say baik, or baik dan buruk… who cares? It’s not the point!!!!!! -
Achmad:
* The technocrats economic policies brought around a turnaround in:
– foreign investment
– hyperinflation down from 600 %
– Development policies – family planning, food security, rural infrastructure, and most of al
– life expectancy was up by 20 years ’67-1998.
– Per capita income up from $50 per capita in 1966- about $650 in 1996.I don’t think it was “Indonesia’s natural resources.” The economic phenomena of Dutch Disease can ruin an agricultural countries terms of trade, and has done in many oil-windfall countries. Indonesia mostly avoided it.
Yes the technocrats were the one who did it. But come on man… what do you mean its not Indonesia’s natural resources!?? Once you brought in stability, you’re practically sitting on a mountain of gold! It really can’t be easier than that. Yet they screwed.
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dewaratugedeanom says:
The question is: what will we gain by blaming and holding Suharto responsible? Those who did the killings and committed atrocities are probably no longer alive or too old to defend themselves properly. Do we still have to create an ‘Indonesia Tribunal’ aka the ‘Rwanda Tribunal’? Isn’t it a bit too late for that?
Achmad Sudarsono said
You might think that because of “what he did” he’s a despot and tyrant. So in the worst alleged human rights abuse, 1965-1966 “” what exactly did happen ? What are the facts, Oigal ? What happened ? Exactly ? Don’t know ? Very basically “” 50 words or less.
What happened exactly was that the human rights abusers were fighting their own personal wars. Just like they did in Croatia, Bosnia, Armenia, whereever.
As for Suharto, humans need scapegoats. It helps them to come to peace with their own conscience. So let him be put on trial so that we can go on with our lives, bearing in mind that history never has been an exact science.But it will remain a dark page in Indonesian history. Better we introspect and get ourselves educated.
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Dragonwall says:
I said before during his era, and after he steps down everyone is spitting behind his back and now what?
Mind you that if he so happens to die, then his departure will marked one of the greatest event in the history of Indonesia surpassing any other dignitaries in the world. Just open your eyes and see.
Good or Bad = Bad or Good = He is a better person than any of Indonesia’s leaders despite what your so called bloodthirsty and cruel.
Politics were made of these.
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Dragonwall,
How ’bout asking some ordinary Indonesians what their opinions are for the survey ?
Achmad.
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When opinion on survey are usually bias and prejudicial, how much correctness are contain from within.
Comparing to the implementation of Sharia where survey was taken, then outcome was overwhelming to many commoners’ dismay. Survey is something that usually a small percentage were taken on the opinion to represent the unproportionate majority.
So the outcome is quite obvious, don’t you think so?
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Not a survey. Just want to ask working class Indonesians what they think about Soeharto, that’s all. Then share with other people on Indonesia Matters. Just to see what happens. If only to push this medium a little.
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So I see. I bet you that the working class will still consider Soeharto a better person running this country of 250 million.
Take a look a some of the dirty politics at work.
Pakistan. Mr Bhutto was running a good show when an over zealous general says he wants to have a hand in politic, so a helicopter crash and he was dead.
Many have speculated that Musharaf was dirty, when Benazir was force into exile many times when Musharaf’s position was threatened. He give in to democracy but is still holding onto dictatorship when the coming election saw a cruel attack on a woman whom for many years fought for the rights of their own people. Now Musharaf says someone else made the attack. Ain’t that dirty.I am not taking side. Lets forget corruption for a while because during his rule this topic came in later onto the scene.
One thing I failed to understand was that why Soeharto does not make a passageway, an escape route for his political onslaught. He should have had democracy implemented to go along side by side with the Islamic faction .
The Chinese saying is that “If you can’t fight a bull, you should go side by side with him so that you don’t get hurt”.
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Hubris. Soeharto was according to one historian considering stepping down in the 1980s, but his cronies convinced him to stay in place. After Tien died, he increasingly lost it.
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Abdulrahman Wahid did advice Soeharto to step down before his last tragic term but he insisted on staying on the last one. He had the NU backing him up all the way. But it seems that the army just got impatient in backing him up with the inside struggle. I guess getting of the back of a tiger is even more difficult than onto it. The viciousness of political foes doesn’t seemed to recognize that Wiranto was once his prodigy aide d’camp.
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Might be interesting:
Did Indonesia’s progress justify Suharto’s iron fist approach?
AL JAZEERA Talk Show “THE LEGACY OR A DICTATOR?”:
Joining Teymoor Nabili to discuss Suharto’s legacy are Wimar Witoelar
(Indonesian president advisor), a political commentator, Mr Mugiyanto
(coordinator of The Indonesian Association of Families of the
Disappeared/IKOHI), a political activist, and via satellite, Dr Emil
Salim (former Soeharto economic advisor)Available in:
PART 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AlgoDlaUsU
PART 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHwEd9aQGi4 -
Did Indonesia’s progress justify Suharto’s iron fist approach?
Did the iron fist approach in, China, Russia jsutify their leaders action…PROGRESS…YES
I said earlier before, For Indonesia to revert back to those prosperous days it is just mission impossible. And I also said no money will bring Soeharto back and if it did he might also not want to lead people who have no faith in him by opting for those stupid, useless, incompetent goons after his impeachment.
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We do’nt blame Pak Harto either because Indonesian under Pak Harto 32 years is much much better than under Dutch Bule 350 years
Lie – Indonesia was under a Corporate State from 1605 to 1795 ; the Dutch courts in 1928 defended Mohammad Hatta right to free speech and calling the people to overthrow the government if the wanted ; Sukarno was only convicted because he was calling for Japan to declare war on what Sukarno called the “Imperial Western Powers of the Pacific”.
General Suharto after 1965 setup the American version of the Corporate State of Indonesia which the Ford Foundation & Rockefellers had been promoting since the 1940s.
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Lie – Indonesia was under a Corporate State from 1605 to 1795 ; the Dutch courts in 1928 defended Mohammad Hatta right to free speech and calling the people to overthrow the government if the wanted ; Sukarno was only convicted because he was calling for Japan to declare war on what Sukarno called the “Imperial Western Powers of the Pacific”.
So you want to say that all Dutch crimes against humanity in slaughtering our people, plundering our country and stealing our wealth were pardonable because of the Dutch courts in 1928 defended Mohammad Hatta right to free speech and calling the people to overthrow the government if the wanted while Pak Harto crimes is not because His name is Muhammmad Soeharto
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So you want to say that all Dutch crimes against humanity in slaughtering our people, plundering our country and stealing our wealth were pardonable
No, I’m saying the local warrior class was equally guilty as their VoC businessmen employers; and that General Suharto and Megawati and General Yuhoyono are the modern version of the people who use to enable colonial exploitation & abuse. That Corporations from Exxon in Sumatra to Conoco Phillips in East Timor to Freeport McMoRan in Papua are the modern version of VoC.
A person can not less their guilt for their actions by association, but their association can mean more people are equally guilty of the same crimes. Some people want RI to remain a colonial power, but I am opposed to colonialism by any nation.
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No that’s nearly three million people not a just a percentage anyway busy now maybe later.. P.S How’s the love fest going with Ross.