Bahai
Nov 1st, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslims converting to Bahai.
Thirty-one Muslims in the Donggala area of Central Sulawesi have become apostates and converted to the Bahá’à religion, it is said, inviting the anger of their neighbours who are sticking firm to Islam, and the displeasure of the local bureaucracy.
The head of the Religious Affairs Office in Palolo sub-district said that the Bahai faith, led by one Mulahi, a former marriage counsellor, entered Banpers village in the 1990s, and Mulahi had persuaded 31 local people to convert.
But some Muslims in the village are not taking it lying down:
The homes of the Bahai followers in Banpers are often pelted with stones.
Nor is the local government, which held a meeting between concerned Muslims and the Bahaists in September, 2007, wherein the Bahai adherents were warned to have a think about which religion they wanted to belong to, either Islam, like before, or another religion which was recognised by the government, because Bahai is not. Another meeting will be held soon, to find out whether the Bahaists have had enough thinking time. antara
The Department of Religion (Depag) has also sent down an investigative team, says Muhammad Ramli in Palu, and they will have to decide whether Bahai is a sect within Islam. If so, then the converts, or their leaders, can likely be prosecuted for blasphemy. Depag also wants to find out how Bahai has been spread in the area, because if it is being preached at people who already hold a religion, then that may also constitute a crime, he said. antara
November 8th. Two out of the seven households that converted to Bahai are said to have returned to Islam, after the two heads of the households, Mulahi (70) and Muslimin (40), met with local leaders. Four others refused to change back to Islam, while the seventh did not turn up. antara
395 Comments on “Bahai”
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anna says:
Pak KHAFI ATAU SIAPA AJA LAH
I AM STILL LEARINING ABOUT ISLAM, SO PLEASE DO SO TELL ME ABOUT BAHAI FAITH
I AM JUST CURIOUS, THANK YOUANNA
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Janma says:
Ade Wanto said:
Is it true that Quran mention about Injeel? Whoops. As far as I know Quran mention only about the People of the Book and Jesus -son of Mary- to whom Allah sent forth as an apostle to Israelities (Bani Israel). As a world Injeel was introduced by Christians not in Quran. I still can’t find a word Injeel in Quran. Could you show me where is the verse in Quran that contain a word “Injeel”?
and then Khafi answered…..
Waqaffayna AAala atharihim biAAeesa ibni maryama musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati waataynahu al-injeela feehi hudan wanoorun wamusaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alttawrati wahudan wamawAAithatan lilmuttaqeena 5:46
Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli bima anzala Allahu feehi waman lam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faola-ika humu alfasiqoona 5:47
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi waallatheena maAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamao baynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlan mina Allahi waridwanan seemahum fee wujoohihim min athari alssujoodi thalika mathaluhum fee alttawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeeli kazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu faistaghlatha faistawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu alzzurraAAa liyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati minhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheeman 48:29
And also in 57: 27, 3:3, 3:48, 3:65, 5:66, 5:68 , 5:110, 7:157, and 9:111.
And then Janma said: whoops… turns out you need to read your book more mr ade wanto!
And about contradictions in the quran… there are many!1. sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur’anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
2. The Qur’an teaches that there are seven heavens one above the other [67:3, 71:15], and that the stars are in the lower heaven [67:5, 37:6, 41:12], but the moon is depicted as being in/inside the seven heavens [71:16], even though in reality the stars are much further away from the earth than the moon.
3. Sura 51:49 claims that everything is created in pairs. But this is not true! There are quite a number of things that have no counterpart and species where only one gender exists.
4. Ultimately, the strongest, most serious problem of the Qur’an is that it affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as authentic and true revelation from God (cf. what the Qur’an says about the Bible), while radically denying central aspects of their message, e.g. the core themes of sacrifice and atonement in the Torah, the crucifixion of Jesus, the deity of Jesus and even the mere messianic title “Son of God” for Jesus, the very nature of God, the fall and the sinfulness of man, necessity and means of salvation, etc. For this reason Muslims had to invent the unwarranted theory of corruption of the earlier scriptures, even against the clear testimony of the Qur’an itself.
5. The Qur’an makes the following statements regarding the food that unbelievers will have in hell:
No food will there be for them but a bitter Dhari S. 88:6 Y. Ali
Nor hath he any food except the foul pus from the washing of wounds, S. 69:36 Y. AliIn a footnote, Yusuf Ali gives the following explanation for Dhari:
It is a plant, bitter and thorny, loathsome in smell and appearance, which will neither give fattening nourishment to the body nor in any way satisfy the burning pangs of hunger. …
Other translators render the term as “bitter thorn-fruit” (Pickthall) “dry, bitter and thorny herbage” (Sher Ali), “cactus thorn” (Arberry), “the foul thorn” (Palmer).
Obviously, both kinds of ‘food’ are chosen to evoke a feeling of horror when thinking about Hell. However, the contradiction is in the double claim that this or that will be the only food, i.e.
* No food except Dhari (88:6).
* No food except foul pus (69:36).There is yet another passage that is relevant to this discussion:
Is that the better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqqum?
For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers.
For it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire:
The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils:
Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith.
Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water.
Then shall their return be to the (Blazing) Fire. S. 37:62-68 Y. Ali; cf. 56:52Thus, regarding this one topic alone, the Qur’an contains three contradictions:
1. “Eating of the tree of Zaqqum” (37:66) contradicts “eating only Dhari” (88:6).
2. “Eating of the tree of Zaqqum” (37:66) contradicts “eating only foul pus” (69:36).
3. “Eating only Dhari” (88:6) contradicts “eating only foul pus” (69:36).6. will Allah reward the good deeds of the unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.
shall I go on? There are many more…..
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why did that all go as a quote!???? grrr…
it’s not a quote actually after the line starting “and Janma said”.
Sorry it that was all too long. -
here are more contradictions in the Quran…
1. Sura 2:29 says the earth was created first and then heaven.
Sura 49:27-30 says the heaven was created first and then the earth was created.2. Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 all clearly state that God created “the heavens and the earth” in six days.
Sura 41:9-12, the detailed description of the creation procedure, add up to eight days.3. Jesus was born more than 1,000 years after Moses
Sura 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil (the book given to Jesus)4. Surah 18:89-98 says Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age.
Historical records show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age. He believed he was divine and forced others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods.5. Surah 20:90-100 says a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire.
Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt.6.Surah 9:30 says the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God – the Messiah…This has never been a tenet of Judaism.
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Sputjam says:
jamna asked the following :-
6. will Allah reward the good deeds of the unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward
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Idolators are those who believe in any religion. God does not require you to be in any religion.
Those who are unbelievers(atheist) and idolators will not be forgiven according to the koran.
You do not need a religion to beleieve in God. That was the message, as I understand it, from the various scriptures. -
and plus…. this last jewel of contradiction…
# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an?
1. “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
2. “And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
3. “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29). -
Mohammed Khafi says:
Janma,
Just follow this link if you want to see answers to your supposed contradictions in Al Quran Muslim-Christian Dialogue. I am suprised at your use of that material, coming as it does from a fanatical anti Islam site, I thought that you were a fair minded person. Why would you think about using material from a fanatically anti Islam site if you wanted a reasoned argument against Islam, especially without checking the facts and any counter arguments?
Anna,
If you wish to learn more about Bahai follow this link The Bahai’s. If you are interested in Islam, please remember that Islam is purely about following God and his word, not about any sects or religious practices. Anyone can be, and are, Muslims and follow Islam if they believe in God, believe in the day of Judgement and do good deeds. This applies to people of all faith I believe. Islam is not the religion of Prophet Mohammed it is described in Al Quran as the religion of Nabi Ibrahim, it is simply Submission to God.Peace
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Cukurungan says:
and plus”¦. this last jewel of contradiction”¦
# Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur’an?
1. “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things,” (2:256).
2. “And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith,” (9:3).
3. “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful,” (9:5).
4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued,” (9:29).Islam Stand is a very clear that there is no compulsion in religion but do not forget Islam is a complete religion either for peace and war time, if you want to live in peace with us we will give you the peace verses (if I am not mistake 90% of quran verse is a message for peace while the remaining of 10% is a war verses).
To make it easy, I will give you a simple analogy, the Islam way is like the railway and we Muslim is passengers of a locomotive who will use those railway going to “Heaven”… We have nothing to hide and we have been made a announcement loudly about the Islam way and our way can be seen by every one so do not blame us if you deliberately drive and crossing your car to our rail way and get hit by our locomotive.
Verses you quoted is the war verses to the infidels who broke the peace treaty with us therefore if anybody want us to activate those War Verse …hi hihi….you know better what to do
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Cuk said:
To make it easy, I will give you a simple analogy, the Islam way is like the railway and we Muslim is passengers of a locomotive who will use those railway going to “Heaven””¦ We have nothing to hide and we have been made a announcement loudly about the Islam way and our way can be seen by every one so do not blame us if you deliberately drive and crossing your car to our rail way and get hit by our locomotive.
Very good analogy Cuk, all the passengers are sleeping or dozing, or wasting away the time, they don’t know the route, they can’t drive the train, they are just along for the ride! Some of them hanging out of the doors, some of them riding on the roof, the train is delapidated, old and worn out, dirty from the passengers own rubbish, and the toilets! Well forget about them! But the passengers don’t care because it says ‘DESTINATION HEAVEN’ on the front, Shame they didn’t look in the drivers cabin, they maybe would have found Shaitan sitting there with a big grin on his face!
Peace
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raden says:
One more word Khafi, the typical Indonesian train are stinky / noisy without proper toilet & sanitation as usual. These kind of train were dumped a few hundred years ago by other succesful countries. It self explained why Indonesia can & never progress forward.
It’s time to change the stinky trains & sent it back to middle east so that our country can back to prosperity level otherwise just leave Indonesia otherwise you will become stinky smelly like the trains -
Pakmantri says:
@Cukurungan,
If that’s your analogy of Islam and Muslim, then may Allah have mercy on you.
That statement can only be made by somebody who doesn’t know/understand Islam or hate Islam, very degrading and shallow. 🙁
From your analogy Muslims are lazy stupid bunch of people who do not care about what’s going on around them or outside the train and don’t have to do anything but stay in the train to get to heaven. It is all up to the driver (i.e. clerics, imam, devil or whatever) to get them to their promised destination.
Very sad words from somebody who claim to be a defender of Islam. (although, I don’t believe Islam need to be defended)@Mohammed Kafi,
…………….. amen.Peace.
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Teng says:
Verses you quoted is the war verses to the infidels who broke the peace treaty with us therefore if anybody want us to activate those War Verse “¦hi hihi”¦.you know better what to do
When I look at this sentence.. I can just see the intolerance. You speak of “infidels” and you make a “hihi” sound when thinking of war.
Its “muslims” like you who make me sick, and sometimes even hate islam. Thank God there are people like MK and other people on this forum who neutralize your crap and make me feel about islam the way I always used to do. Respectful
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Ade Wanto says:
Still I really don’t find al-injeeli in an Arabic word nor in Quran. In our Quran phrase you quote is Walyahkum ahlu kitaba but it is not Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli. Perhaps you have a new one of Quran edition? In all verses that you quote there are still not a single word contain al-injeel. There are al kitaba, al-kitabi, or al kitabun. Is it true there is a word al-injeeli exist in Quran?
Btw, again, I believe your name come from Arabic word, however, it does not mean there is only you in this planet can read Quran in its original language. There are many peoples out there read Quran in their daily life, including myself. So please check it again the Quran in its original language. After that, I suppose you won’t say, “My bad Arabic language, I should have said ….”
And, Kahfi says, “Ade, you pointed out the corruption of previous scriptures, by reason of translation and addition by mankind.” Who is corrupted the verse? Someone whose change its original language and mix it with translation or what? Please, again I ask you to use your head and heart carefully when read Quran and I have a quote for you: “None invents falsehoods save those who disbelieve Allah revelations: It is they that are the liars.” (Quran 10:105).
About one god. Let you check this verse in its original language (what I qoute below is a translation in English): “Say: ” I am but an ordinary people like yourselves. It is revealed to me that your God is one God. Let him that hopes to meet his Lord do what is right and worship none beside his Lord.” It is crystal clear that Allah pleased my teachers told me even we accept the universality that there are still many gods to whom many peoples believe in. I really believe amongst 6 billion peoples in this planet there are many peoples do not believe in Allah, however, they have their own gods (WHATSOEVER their gods are).
And, I do believe that my teachers are the best. They always remind me on this verse: “My sons, do not enter from one gate; enter from different gates. In no way can I shield you from the might of Allah; judgement is Allah alone. In Allah I have put my trust. In Allah let the faithful but their trust.” (Quran 12:67)
Salaam,
you can meet me here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204672923 -
PAK KHAFI
ONE MORE, THAT SOMETIMES BUGGING ME , IS IT AL-QURAN TEACHING THE MUSLIM ABOUT THE JIHAD ARMY? OR HURTING OTHERS AND WORSE KILLING THEM ANG USING NAME OF ALLAH…. BECAUSE OF WHAT I CAN understand islam do not teaching about that kind of behavior is that right??…so yes I am very interesting learning about islam more and more.
but I need the right person to guide me to. Not just some people.
Why I say this because the incident that happened in the Island of Bali view years ago that killing more that 100 people, and the people who done those kind of act using the name of ALLAH
and I think its wrong, So please explain to me about Islam…I think you better explainer after I read some of your comment.Thank you
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Kahfi says, “Ade, you pointed out the corruption of previous scriptures, by reason of translation and addition by mankind. You highlighted the originality and unchanged nature of Al Quran,…”
And, Kahfi quote this verse: Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli bima anzala Allahu
In my Quran that verse written like this : Walyahkum ahlu kitaba … it is really not al-injeeli, in my Quran, that verse word is kitaba. It might be you have another version of Quran?
So, I wonder if you check that verse again you won’t have to say: “My bad Arabic, I should have said …” Hey, even your name from Arabic language, tehre are many people out there read Quran in their daily life, including myself. Who is act as a corruptor of verse?
Cuk you said:
If in now days, the people who call them self Jews and Christian follow and obey the law written in the Torah and Injil , It will be no adult males christian and Jew still have complete of two pair hand because most them must be subjected to a hand amputation “¦because most theirs hand already touched and grabbed the pussy women that not theirs wife’s.Kahfi says :
And amputation of hands for this act is in which Hadith Cuk? Good job it is not applied in Saudi Arabia isn’t it? If it was they would certainly have to increase the number of cars with automatic gearboxes!Whoops. If someday sharia law implement in Indonesia, I will be choose sharia punishment that if I commit to adulteries. Coz, as Quran stated clearly “The adulterer and the adulteress shall each be given a hundred lashes.” (Quran 24:2)
However, what do Christians give punishment to adulteries? Please read Luke 6:27-30. Injil crystal clear mention about punishment to adulteries: Your eyes must gouge out if you commit to adulteries and then your hands must be amputate. Though many Christians as they say obey their Lord, they really never heed to their own Book.
So, who will be need an automatic transmission cars? Cukurungan has asked a question why Christians do not heed their Book. I believe Cukurungan never ask about Hadith. Kahfi, I think you must learn again and get the best teacher you can get. And, please don’t even say again, “Sorry it is my stupidity.” Hush hush hush.
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However, what do Christians give punishment to adulteries? Please read Luke 6:27-30. Injil crystal clear mention about punishment to adulteries: Your eyes must gouge out if you commit to adulteries and then your hands must be amputate. Though many Christians as they say obey their Lord, they really never heed to their own Book.
No, we christians sometimes do not heed to our own book. That’s because we are bright enough to put things in perspective and sometimes say: Times change…. what is written a thousand year ago might not really apply now in the 21st century.
When a religion matures, it tends to focus on the love-part of the religion. Christianity had its crusades, witch and kafir burnings etc etc. Now its more about forgiving and understanding. Islam is very clearly still in that first stage. Clearly evident in all the shouting: Don’t offend me… don’t offend the Prophet… dont do this.. we’ll cut your hand, your head… etcetera. Muslims in Sudan wanted an English teacher executed… why? Because she let her students pick a name for her teddybear… and the students chose Mohammed. Now the teacher is jailed for 15 days, but the people want her killed… this might be an indication for some introspection people.
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No, we christians sometimes do not heed to our own book. That’s because we are bright enough to put things in perspective and sometimes say: Times change”¦. what is written a thousand year ago might not really apply now in the 21st century.
When a religion matures, it tends to focus on the love-part of the religion. Christianity had its crusades, witch and kafir burnings etc etc. Now its more about forgiving and understanding.
Yes Man West Christian are bright enough here below we go
No wonder”¦..New Application and New Revision the holy book of the brightened and enlightened people has came to the reality live “¦ adultery is a goods deeds, pedophilia is good, killing is no problem, sucking babies is OK , lesbian is a good, free sex is OK, homosexual is ok”¦ even in now days the woman in the Christian country have been gaining the upper hand and they have been achieving an amazing progress of the gender equality rights”¦so rapes is no longer monopoly of the men deeds “¦but some women love to do it here below we go:
http://forum.fathermag.com/tsf/028/forum/messages/136204.shtml
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years The Analyzer 2007-07-07 15:27 (0)
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years bianca van Ellewee 2007-06-07 06:24 (0)
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years Journalist Atlanta 2005-11-16 14:58 (0)
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years Daniel Essiet 2005-09-17 21:27 (0)
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years Taylor – London, Ontario 2005-05-05 04:29 (2)
o “¢ The English Lesson “¢ William Cook 2006-09-14 16:21 (0)
o Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years George, LA (0)
“¢ Re: Raped by woman teacher at twelve years Josh 2005-04- -
Why would you think about using material from a fanatically anti Islam site if you wanted a reasoned argument against Islam, especially without checking the facts and any counter arguments?
I did check in the Quran, and there are so many contradictions. Same as in the bible, the bhagavad gita and many other scriptures. Are you saying there aren’t any contradictions?
I checked out the site link you included….. and it’s just the other end of the stick…. here is an example….
Unlike current Christian belief, the Quran teaches that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, who is an angel, who is subordinate to God and who is not a third of the trinity! It is worth mentioning here that up to two centuries after the death of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was still understood to mean a superior angel, not of one substance with God. There is good evidence in the Bible to support this view, the following is one example:
“Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit” (Mathew 1:18)
Now consider the following verse:
“Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man called Joseph of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.” (Luke 1:26-27)
From these verses we see that the Holy Spirit and Gabriel are used interchangeably.
How do they get that? The angel Gabriel went to Mary to tell her she would have a child of the holy spirit. He didn’t say HE was the holy spirit…. why would they say that Gabriel is part of the trinity? Same mistakes, same prejudices, same bullsh*t! Everyone defends their position with selective and faulty logic.
I am not anti religion, and I do try to be open minded… but some things written in the Quran and the Bible are contradictory! -
Ade Wanto said:
Still I really don’t find al-injeeli in an Arabic word nor in Quran. In our Quran phrase you quote is Walyahkum ahlu kitaba but it is not Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli. Perhaps you have a new one of Quran edition? In all verses that you quote there are still not a single word contain al-injeel. There are al kitaba, al-kitabi, or al kitabun. Is it true there is a word al-injeeli exist in Quran?
Ade, I have given you reference to 12 verses, where the word Injeel is used in Al Quran, if you cannot find them in the book you are using, it suggests just one thing to me, the book you are using is not Al Quran!
Just remember this verse:
YUSUFALI: He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!
PICKTHAL: Who heareth the revelations of Allah recited unto him, and then continueth in pride as though he heard them not. Give him tidings of a painful doom.
SHAKIR: Who hears the communications of Allah recited to him, then persists proudly as though he had not heard them; so announce to him a painful punishment. 45:08
Ade Wanto said:
And, Kahfi quote this verse: Walyahkum ahlu al-injeeli bima anzala Allahu
In my Quran that verse written like this : Walyahkum ahlu kitaba “¦ it is really not al-injeeli, in my Quran, that verse word is kitaba. It might be you have another version of Quran?
Arabic:
وَلْيَØْكÙمْ أَهْل٠الإÙنجÙيل٠بÙمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّه٠ÙÙيه Ù٠وَمَنْ لَمْ ÙŠÙŽØْكÙمْ بÙمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّه٠ÙÙŽØ£ÙوْلَائÙÙƒÙŽ Ù‡Ùم٠الْÙَاسÙÙ‚ÙونَTransliterated Arabic:
Wa LÄ«aÄ¥kum ‘Ahlu Al-‘InjÄ«li BimÄ ‘Anzala AllÄhu FÄ«hi Wa Man Lam YaÄ¥kum BimÄ ‘Anzala AllÄhu Fa’Å«lÄ’ika Humu Al-FÄsiqÅ«naBahasa Indonesia:
Dan hendaklah orang-orang pengikut Injil, memutuskan perkara menurut apa yang diturunkan Allah di dalamnya. Barangsiapa tidak memutuskan perkara menurut apa yang diturunkan Allah, maka mereka itu adalah orang-orang yang fasik. (QS. 5:47)As I said earlier, you cannot be reading Al Quran.
Ade Wanto said:
About one god. Let you check this verse in its original language (what I qoute below is a translation in English): “Say: ” I am but an ordinary people like yourselves. It is revealed to me that your God is one God. Let him that hopes to meet his Lord do what is right and worship none beside his Lord.” It is crystal clear that Allah pleased my teachers told me even we accept the universality that there are still many gods to whom many peoples believe in. I really believe amongst 6 billion peoples in this planet there are many peoples do not believe in Allah, however, they have their own gods (WHATSOEVER their gods are).
It is crystal clear that:
“La” means no, nothing, negating of what follows.“Ilaha” means Deity, God, One to be worshipped, One who has power to satisfy your needs and answer your prayer, One who is in control of your affairs, One who can comfort you; provide protection and support for you.
“Illa” means only, but, if not, except.
“‘llah” means Allah, Al-lah! ( A contraction of Al-Ilaha, The God)
No God, but The God. Singular, one and only.
Allah says:
YUSUFALI: Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and for the men and women who believe: for Allah knows how ye move about and how ye dwell in your homes.
PICKTHAL: So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest.
SHAKIR: So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding. 47:19YUSUFALI: There is no god but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
PICKTHAL: Allah (Himself) is Witness that there is no Allah save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no Allah save Him the Almighty, the Wise.
SHAKIR: Allah bears witness that there is no god but He, and (so do) the angels and those possessed of knowledge, maintaining His creation with justice; there is no god but He, the Mighty, the Wise. 3:18
Ade Wanto said:
And, I do believe that my teachers are the best. They always remind me on this verse: “My sons, do not enter from one gate; enter from different gates. In no way can I shield you from the might of Allah; judgement is Allah alone. In Allah I have put my trust. In Allah let the faithful but their trust.” (Quran 12:67)
Ade, anybody who teaches you that there are other Gods besides Allah are commiting a serious sin. If they were my teachers I would question their knowledge of Al Quran and its teachings.
Ade Wanto said:
Whoops. If someday sharia law implement in Indonesia, I will be choose sharia punishment that if I commit to adulteries. Coz, as Quran stated clearly “The adulterer and the adulteress shall each be given a hundred lashes.” (Quran 24:2)
Insha’allah, that day will never come. Sharia is the greatest corruption of Gods Laws, the case you have quoted is one of the examples, as you say Al Quran clearly states, being caned 100 times, but have you forgotten what Sharia says is the punishment, Hadad law gives the punishment as death by stoning! and by the way you will not be able to choose your punishment, because if, God forbid Sharia is enforced, there will be no choice, and no appeal!
Ade Wanto said:
Kahfi, I think you must learn again and get the best teacher you can get.
I already have the best teacher, Allah, clearly says that we should search knowledge ourselves, as we are personally responsible for what we do:
YUSUFALI: And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
PICKTHAL: (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart – of each of these it will be asked.
SHAKIR: And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. 17:36
He specifically warns us against following others, even our fathers, who one would think would be the most trustworthy:
YUSUFALI: When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah hath revealed:” They say: “Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers.” What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance?
PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance?
SHAKIR: And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow what we found our fathers upon. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way. 2:170
Peace
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Janma,
I personally don’t believe that there are contradictions in Al Quran, if I did it would be admitting that God is imperfect. I also do not believe that there were imperfections in any of the previous revelations, however I believe that they have become corrupted just as Islam is being corrupted by Sunnah and Hadith.
I have spent many hours searching for a unification of faiths, I believe that it is possible from following Al Quran which teaches that all scriptures are valid if they are teaching the same thing, that is the oneness of god, tolerance, and harmony, I am in no way suggesting that the followers of the other holy books are any less valid for following their holy books but it means that we must all rethink our religions in the search for harmony. It is possibly as simple a bringing it to a more personal level and having respect for each other as people.
I don’t know if you believe in God or not, that is your personal choice and I respect it, but I do believe in God, a singular entity or power, who has given us the same message through all the scriptures. Unfortunately people being what they are, they have twisted these teachings trying to establish their own power, control or exclusivity instead of striving for tolerance, peace, and harmony.
You say that you are not Anti Religious, I personally am! God has given us faith, mankind has given us religion and driven wedges deeply between their fellow human beings.
Peace
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anna,
Jihad, simply means struggle, it can be a struggle to live a life defending tolerance and harmony, a struggle to uphold justice and oppose oppression, those who have used Jihad as a reference to war, are correct in its language usage, but it is not exclusively meant for that use.
The violence that you see in the modern world related to Islam is not justified anywhere in Al Quran, there are verses of violence in Al Quran but these are applicable to the early days when there was violent opposition and oppression of the early Muslins, they were enjoined to defend themselves. Nowhere is violence suggested as an offensive solution to a problem.
There are many misguided people who profess to be Muslim and follow the religion of Islam, but they are neither, if you wish to learn about a religion of peace and tolerance, you will not find it with them. I suggest that you start looking through the articles at Free-Minds But please bear in ming that you should research all these article as deeply as you can, and not just take somebodys word for what they say. You will find many good links from this website.
Another good link and reference for reading Al Quran is Compared Translations of the meaning of Al Quran Just remember that some translators have translated the original Arabic based on their understanding of Hadith and Sunnah and not strictly according to a direct translation and this can change the meaning of the verse.
The most important thing to remember, is to read Al Quran with good intentions, Allah will place the meaning in your heart.
Peace
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Pakmantri Said
December 1st, 2007 at 1:57 am
@Cukurungan,
If that’s your analogy of Islam and Muslim, then may Allah have mercy on you.
That statement can only be made by somebody who doesn’t know/understand Islam or hate Islam, very degrading and shallow.
From your analogy Muslims are lazy stupid bunch of people who do not care about what’s going on around them or outside the train and don’t have to do anything but stay in the train to get to heaven. It is all up to the driver (i.e. clerics, imam, devil or whatever) to get them to their promised destination.
Very sad words from somebody who claim to be a defender of Islam. (although, I don’t believe Islam need to be defended)Brother,
Your pray for me has been answered by Allah and He has been giving me a very beautiful life.
If you consider me that I do not know and do not understand Islam, it could be 99.9% correct because might be you are “Anak Pesantren” or so called “Cendikiawan Muslim” who live in the Golden Tower whereas me is only “kampungan Muslim” who do not want to become “Patung” whilst seeing other people make fun my prophet, my muslim brother, and my belief. However, I never deliberately intended to degrade Muslim and Islam and Allah will be the only Judge in the Judgment day upon what I said.I have no objection with your opinion upon fact of the quality and condition passengers inside the Muslim train that most of them is poor people, low educated people, stupid and lazy ….BUT “¦.. Does quran and hadist teach them to become so?”¦.Does cleric teach them to do so”¦..give me your prove”¦ they can not be fully blamed on their condition”¦..if because of those condition you do not want to mingle among us inside the train is up-to you “¦for me I am very pride and happy live and mingle among them and I am very happy if I can help one of them in anything.
Drivers, Imam and Ulama can be replaced by one of us and they are not a central figure like Pope in Catholic Sect. For us, Ulama or Cleric might issue thousand fatwa but we can easily neglect it if those fatwa is not in line with the original track has been established since 1400 years ago. So if the driver is trying to divert the train from the established track for whatever reason we will kick him out and replace him with one of us because those track can be seen by anyone.
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Kahfi says: Ade, you pointed out the corruption of previous scriptures, by reason of translation and addition by mankind. You highlighted the originality and unchanged nature of Al Quran, don’t you think it a great shame that most people don’t even read Al Quran, you yourself didn’t even know that the word Injeel is in Al Quran 12 times.
I found word injil not word injeel in Quran 3:3 and not in 12 times as you mentioned. But, please check again, is it true that word injeel or kitaba? My knowledge there is no word such injeel in Arabic language. In my Quran 5:47, I really read kitaba not injeel. There is no letter “e” or “ee” in Arabic written language.
Is it something wrong here? Or, show off a stupidity?
Amongst Moslems there are rabitha (connection). That’s what Cukurungan describe as a train. If a train in Indonesia still poor, that’s Indonesian problem nowadays. But, we believe, even the train in Indonesia let say won’t be like in Europe or Japan, as Moslems we still go by that train and pick the Leader by our own. We have freedom to change whoever we want to be our leader to be trusted.
But, Moslem really never take a leader like Bahai, Haq, or Musadek did. We never sell a ticket to heaven -that the main reason why Moslems in Indonesia reject that sects present in Indonesia. We believe Allah never give a right to someone to taken for granted anybody else sin even they are priests. If others have someone -with their magic spell- who can take everybody else sin even they call him the son of god, its their believe. Moslems really don’t believe it.
So, pray your own gods, we pray ours. Your gods is yours. Our Allah is ours. You don’t have to claim that Allah is yours too. Heed your own Holy Book. So we heed ours. You will go to your heaven. So do we. We don’t have to claims that my path is the right one. You have your own path. So do we. As long as we never commit to crime we can’t judge by the law. And, we don’t have make war (any war) in reason to prove that “My Lord” is your God too. Everybody has their own god and heaven (WHATSOEVER their Gods and Heaven are).
Above is the reason why I do believe: god is not only Allah. There are many gods beside Allah: Gods for Jews, Christians, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confusianism, Sintoism etc. Every religion has their own god and book from their god.
And, for me, the task of human from Allah is preserve this earth that Allah create. We don’t have a right to make every person in this world to become one religion. So we all as a human must be live together in diversity amongst people include religion, culture, language etc.
As moslem, I have a story about Allah’s apostle named Jacob which tell his sons, there is not just one gate to reach the heaven. (See Quran 12:67). So, you can choose from any direction and enter the gate safely by your free of thought. Still, in Allah I have put my trust. And, if you think your way is the only right path way to the heaven, let only Allah judge that. Nor me nor you judge it.
Teng says: When a religion matures, it tends to focus on the love-part of the religion. Christianity had its crusades, witch and kafir burnings etc etc. Now its more about forgiving and understanding. Islam is very clearly still in that first stage.
What do you mean about mature in religion? You better read an article I quote:
The Birth of Fundamentalism
By Jay Tolson
Religious fundamentalism has become one of the great cultural and political forces in the modern world. Associated with scriptural literalism and inflexible dogmatism, it has created divisions and hostilities within different religious traditions as well as among them. In its most extreme forms, it has led to acts of unspeakable violence. Little wonder, then, that scholars of religion have turned their attention to the subject–most notably in the University of Chicago’s Fundamentalism Project, which under the direction of Martin Marty and R. Scott Appleby, produced five volumes on different aspects of the phenomenon.
……………….
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/faith-matters/2007/11/16/the-birth-of-fundamentalism.html
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dewaratugedeanom says:
Teng said
Muslims in Sudan wanted an English teacher executed”¦ why? Because she let her students pick a name for her teddybear”¦ and the students chose Mohammed. Now the teacher is jailed for 15 days, but the people want her killed”¦ this might be an indication for some introspection people.
Do you really believe they wanted her to be killed because the teddybear was named Mohammed”¦?
They wanted her dead because she is white and English. Don’t be fooled by these so-called blasphemy allegations. The real reason is plain old dirty envy and racism. Just like the Danish cartoons story. This religious fanaticism is only a mask for spite and frustration having missed the gravy train of evolution and no longer being able to compete. -
iamisaid says:
Hello ade wanto,
Matters concerning religion is generally off-limits for me. There have been exceptions and this response would be one more.
I read your submission. I find it interesting. I am not a Muslim and hardly know much about the teachings of Islam. Hence, pardon me, I cannot connect whenever the Quran is quoted.
However, from the gist of what you have stated starting from the fourth paragraph till the end, I appreciate your stance about God, man and religion.
If only there were more “ade wantos'” with that kind of appreciation.
When I was a boy, the Catholic Jesuit priest who taught us about religion, explained the word “religion” to the class. What you have said is as many words above reminds me about what the Jesuit priest said.
He said that the word “religion” comes from the Latin word “religare”. That the Latin word when translated meant a bond between man (singular) and The Supreme Being.
I remember him saying that to consider the Church as religion is not correct. It is a place of assembly for prayer. He went on to explain many other things related to how religion is to be understood.Surprisingly for that time, he was against the statues of Saints, etc, etc, being placed inside the Church as he considered them a form of idolatry because those who came to prayer paid more attention to the representation of these holy individuals rather than focus on their own spiritual renewal with God.
Several years later, the Vatican (seat of the Catholic religion) banned the placement of all these statues inside the Church.
Oh, I have digressed. Back to where I was earlier on – If only there were more minds like yours that appreciates that man can still be united in diversity.
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dewaratugedeanom Said:
This religious fanaticism is only a mask for spite and frustration having missed the gravy train of evolution and no longer being able to compete.
me :
Beli…beli..beli… compete for what …we don’t want to compete with you and your group of “cowboy Kuta” in searching and sucking the bottom holes of Japanese and Ausi Ladies …you can do that as you wish but don’t forget regularly clean your mouth otherwise you might get “penyakit mulut dan kuku” like a domestic animal diseaseHi hi hi ask help to Ali Sina…we are waiting your promise to ridicule us.
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@cukurungan,
I said:
From your analogy Muslims are lazy stupid bunch of people who do not care about what’s going on around them or outside the train……………………..
I said, “your analogy”, i.e. Cukurungan’s analogy.
Cukurungan said:
I have no objection with your opinion upon fact of the quality and condition passengers inside the Muslim train that most of them is poor people, low educated people, stupid and lazy “¦.BUT “¦.. Does quran and hadist teach them to become so?”¦.Does cleric teach them to do so”¦..give me your prove”¦ they can not be fully blamed on their condition”¦..if because of those condition you do not want to mingle among us inside the train is up-to you “¦for me I am very pride and happy live and mingle among them and I am very happy if I can help one of them in anything.
………………… *%$#@&???? whaaat?!
Very simple words yet miss understood completely! I rest my case.
Peace.
P.S. How is USA?
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Ade Wanto said:
I found word injil not word injeel in Quran 3:3 and not in 12 times as you mentioned. But, please check again, is it true that word injeel or kitaba? My knowledge there is no word such injeel in Arabic language. In my Quran 5:47, I really read kitaba not injeel. There is no letter “e” or “ee” in Arabic written language.
Ade, the roman transliterations used vary dependent on the pronumciation of the local speaker, that is the reason for the different spellings, in the local language used they all say the same word regardless of the spelling. There are no roman letters in the Arabic written language at all.
Just check the verses in Arabic, as I said earleir if your Al Quran says kitaba instead of Injeel it is a poor translation or transliteration and should not be trusted.
Ade Wanto said:
Amongst Moslems there are rabitha (connection). That’s what Cukurungan describe as a train. If a train in Indonesia still poor, that’s Indonesian problem nowadays. But, we believe, even the train in Indonesia let say won’t be like in Europe or Japan, as Moslems we still go by that train and pick the Leader by our own. We have freedom to change whoever we want to be our leader to be trusted.
Ade what makes you think you are smart enough to pick your own leader, when you cannot even find the word Injeel in Al Quran?
Ade Wanto said:
But, Moslem really never take a leader like Bahai, Haq, or Musadek did. We never sell a ticket to heaven -that the main reason why Moslems in Indonesia reject that sects present in Indonesia. We believe Allah never give a right to someone to taken for granted anybody else sin even they are priests. If others have someone -with their magic spell- who can take everybody else sin even they call him the son of god, its their believe. Moslems really don’t believe it.
Ade, I assume that you think you are Sunni as are the vast majority in this wonderful country, Sunni are a sect just like all the others, a true Muslim diecribes himself simply as a muslim.
Ade Wanto said:
So, pray your own gods, we pray ours. Your gods is yours. Our Allah is ours. You don’t have to claim that Allah is yours too. Heed your own Holy Book. So we heed ours. You will go to your heaven. So do we. We don’t have to claims that my path is the right one. You have your own path. So do we. As long as we never commit to crime we can’t judge by the law. And, we don’t have make war (any war) in reason to prove that “My Lord” is your God too. Everybody has their own god and heaven (WHATSOEVER their Gods and Heaven are).
Above is the reason why I do believe: god is not only Allah. There are many gods beside Allah: Gods for Jews, Christians, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confusianism, Sintoism etc. Every religion has their own god and book from their god.
Making a statement like this makes me wonder if you even understand the basics of Islam, I gave you a number of verses in my comments above where Allah clearly and without any need for clarification states that He is the One and only God, the same God that every other religion prays to and worships, and still you believe that there are many different Gods, and want to perpetuate distinctions amongst the various religions?
Peace
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Kahfi says, “I said earleir if your Al Quran says kitaba instead of Injeel it is a poor translation or transliteration and should not be trusted.”
What you say is yours. I don’ give a f*cking damn to what you have read!
If you really capable to read Arabic you simply can read a difference between kitaba and injil. Read again 12 verses that you quote! And, ask all your teachers what its sound: kitaba or injil. I have never heard ahlulinjil. In all my life, all Quran reader that word sound ahlulkitaba. There is no ahlulinjil! The word injil performs in verse 3:3 to describe that Quran has revealed in those Books (Torah and Injil).
Is it really something wrong here? It seem there is a stupid guy stand for himself. Gotcha.
Indeed I am a moslem (WHATSOEVER you tag me as a Sunni or else). However, I really never meet a stupid guy like yourself in my entire world. If I do meet so I shall say a same thing that you are someone intend to be a dancing queen wanna dance in the dark and judge everybody with a totally dumbblindfoolhead.
In my eyes, a guy like you are really a danger person even for moslem believer. It’s simply coz your stupidity. So I must say:
No Peace!
Comment on “Bahai”.
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The koran addressed several types of people
a) the believers of God
b) those who do not believe in God
c) the idol worshippers (Those who worshipped anything. this group consist if present day christians, muslims religionist, buddhist, hindus and anyone with a religion)
d) The children if israel (the people Moses saved from the rule fo the Pharoah in egypt)
For (a) there is a code of conduct clearly written, which the believers must not transgressed. These people will be judged by their deeds alone.
For (b) and (c), warning of the consequences in the next life.
And (d) for the children of israel to return to the straight path.
present day muslims religionist have abandoned the koran 100%. Instead of believeing in God, they believe in their ulamaks.
The first 100 years of islamic history after the death of Mohamed was a mystery. It was a mystery becasue there was no original verse of the koran that survived during that period. Could there be a persecution of believers who carried the original message? why was all the records destroyed?
After the period of mysterious silence, the koran as it is found today was unfolded, together with two new and unheard of before text, which is now reffered to as the hadith and the sunnah.
muslim religionist the world over embraced these writtings like their christian counterparts embraced their bible, saying that these are from God or God sanctioned them although it was written by unknown men.
Now an old koran icmanuscript waa found in yemen, dated to be around the time just after the death of Mohamed. It is being studied presently in Tunisia.
Their initial finding was that
a) the old manuscript was not in the order of the present day koran and
b) It seems that the arabs in mecca did not speak arabic but in ancient aramic. And if the words were translated in aramic, the meaning are more easily understood.
coming back to present day situation, why do present day muslims put so much faith in the hadith and sunnahs? Their reason will be that they are trying follow the footsteps of prophet mohamed.
But Mohamed was a mere messesnger. Believers are suppose to obey only God, and its messages written in the koran. But what if as stated above, the present day koran is not the original word and meanings of God?
We have to focus on the repeated messages, which are easily understood.
a) Do not idol worship (meaning – do not belong to any religion)
b) for the believers, you will be judged by your deeds (and not by your worship rituals)
c) For the unbelievers not to be arrogant and submit themselves to God (by doing good deeds and praising Him)
Instead, muslim religionist are focused on worshipping (sinful act as far as I understand it), no good deeds,( even father abandon his family to join in some brotherhood ritual or seeking religious knowledge), no charity even amongst relatives, and a cult obssesed with the stone embedded in mecca.
Use your brains. Mohamed was probably trying to destroy the kaabah. Instead, after his death, the religious stone worship ulamaks have you under their control, making you spend uneccesay time doing the five daily rituals and absconding your money in the form of zakat.