Bahai
Nov 1st, 2007, in News, by PatungMuslims converting to Bahai.
Thirty-one Muslims in the Donggala area of Central Sulawesi have become apostates and converted to the Bahá’à religion, it is said, inviting the anger of their neighbours who are sticking firm to Islam, and the displeasure of the local bureaucracy.
The head of the Religious Affairs Office in Palolo sub-district said that the Bahai faith, led by one Mulahi, a former marriage counsellor, entered Banpers village in the 1990s, and Mulahi had persuaded 31 local people to convert.
But some Muslims in the village are not taking it lying down:
The homes of the Bahai followers in Banpers are often pelted with stones.
Nor is the local government, which held a meeting between concerned Muslims and the Bahaists in September, 2007, wherein the Bahai adherents were warned to have a think about which religion they wanted to belong to, either Islam, like before, or another religion which was recognised by the government, because Bahai is not. Another meeting will be held soon, to find out whether the Bahaists have had enough thinking time. antara
The Department of Religion (Depag) has also sent down an investigative team, says Muhammad Ramli in Palu, and they will have to decide whether Bahai is a sect within Islam. If so, then the converts, or their leaders, can likely be prosecuted for blasphemy. Depag also wants to find out how Bahai has been spread in the area, because if it is being preached at people who already hold a religion, then that may also constitute a crime, he said. antara
November 8th. Two out of the seven households that converted to Bahai are said to have returned to Islam, after the two heads of the households, Mulahi (70) and Muslimin (40), met with local leaders. Four others refused to change back to Islam, while the seventh did not turn up. antara
395 Comments on “Bahai”
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Tuan says:
I already read for the resources you long ago. Again, no help since I have to deal with real people. A typical reaction if I mention those resources when I discuss certain issues with my fellow Moslems about certain religious rules is that they are different kind of interpretations and are not the true teachings.
All I can say is..people will believe what they want to believe, be it intolerant Muslims or intolerant Christians or intolerant atheists. I sometimes see parallels between the ultra-conservative Muslims in the Muslim world and the ultra-conservative christians in the west. Either way, you focus on the positive individuals and not the negative folks.
~Tuan – Indonesian American Muslim
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Tuan said:
I’d be hard pressed to know that some of the folks in Jakarta that you mention are devout Muslims much less following the correct teachings of Muhammad SAW.
How do we know what are the correct teachings of The Prophet, when there are so many lies, fabrications and distortions of The Words of Allah in the Sunnah and Hadith?
The only way to be sure that you are following the correct teachings of The Prophet is to do what he did, and that is to follow what Allah has given us.
Allah says ” Now that I have given them this book complete and fully detailed, in which stories will they believe?” He also says ” This is a confirmation of what came before it.”
Also remember this from Allah ” It matters not if you are a Jew, a Christian or a Sabean, ANY who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds, have nothing to fear from their Lord”
God does not differentiate between different religions, in his eyes ALL who follow his simple basic rules revealed in Torah, Injeel and Al Quran amongst others, are Muslims!
The biggest problem here is that the Sunni, Shia, Ismaili, Salafi, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Sufi, Dawoodi Bohras, Yezidi’s, Nation of Islam, and hundreds of other sects have hijacked the word’s Muslim and Islam, and narrowed their definition to suit their own purposes rather than using the universal definition as given to us in Al Quran.
The words Muslim and Islam have also been dishonoured by those psycopaths and murderers who think that they can change the word using death, destruction, and violence.
God gave humans faith, humans in turn have created religions. It is the religions which divide us up and segregate us, if we all returned to our basic faith, and followed the simple teachings of God, we would all return to a state of tolerance.
Peace
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Cukurungan says:
It is very simple in the papers but it couldn’t be implemented because the majority of muslim will consider your understanding of the basic faith as a heretical faith and like any other faith or religion or sect. without the real power as guardian their fate will be ended up as “death faith” and the best they can do just make article in the internet like “Faith Freedom.Org”.
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falcon says:
Once a in a while in Indonesia TV you hear a soap opera player converted in to Islam. But we hear no complain. but Now on the opposite when these 31 person converted, it becomes an issue, a major one if not. What if a Sunnis becomes a Shias knowing that there is a doctrinal split between them. What about the Islam from the Aga Khan line become a Sunni. God loves every person.
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Ihaknt says:
Wah MK where have you been?
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Hi Ihaknt,
I have been kept busy with new responsibilities at work! I am still working my way toward the answers that I seek, just haven’t had much time to share my thoughts with others like before.
Peace Sister
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Mohammed Khafi:
How do we know what are the correct teachings of The Prophet, when there are so many lies, fabrications and distortions of The Words of Allah in the Sunnah and Hadith?
The only way to be sure that you are following the correct teachings of The Prophet is to do what he did, and that is to follow what Allah has given us.
Allah says ” Now that I have given them this book complete and fully detailed, in which stories will they believe?” He also says ” This is a confirmation of what came before it.”
Asslamu Alaikum Brah,
I should have been more specific when I said “correct teachings”. Obviously, the ills of Indonesia (corruption, intolerance, lack of family values, inequality) are not aligned with teachings of Muhammad SAW, can we agree on that? I was definitely not talking about sects but attitudes that some Indonesian Muslims.
Also remember this from Allah ” It matters not if you are a Jew, a Christian or a Sabean, ANY who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement, and do good deeds, have nothing to fear from their Lord”
I do know that verse and verily the truth has been spoken. But you also have to consider the Christians and Jews who are “Christian and Jewish by heritage” the way some Indonesians are “Muslim by heritage”. Those particular Christians and Jews are ambivalent of their faith than God-fearing Judeo-Christians. So not all (poseurs who are Muslim, Christians and Jewish) of them are going to be saved. I speak from experience since I lived my entire life here in the US amongst them as friends.
Also, you have to consider that Christians do not believe in one God (note that the verse specifies a singular entity) as they are followers of more than one (Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit). Many Christians believe they are monotheistic but in reality they are not, if we were to do include them then we might as well include the Hindus who believe in a similar concept. I believe the verse targets Christians who conceptualize God as one and not as three (like the Pentecostals or liberal Christians).
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
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The biggest problem here is that the Sunni, Shia, Ismaili, Salafi, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Sufi, Dawoodi Bohras, Yezidi’s, Nation of Islam, and hundreds of other sects have hijacked the word’s Muslim and Islam, and narrowed their definition to suit their own purposes rather than using the universal definition as given to us in Al Quran.
The biggest problem here is that Ingkarus Sunnah (Hadist Rejector) have hijacked Quran and narrowed their definition to suit their own purposes to suit their mission for removing the religion segregretion in order to make peace on earth but they do not realize that by rejecting all hadist it will make them in different basket from all of us ( the mainstream muslim) and automatically a new barrier exist…How can they will bring peace on earth if we more 1 billion population of earth do not want peace with them.
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Wa’Alaikum Salaam Bro Tuan,
You said:
Also, you have to consider that Christians do not believe in one God (note that the verse specifies a singular entity) as they are followers of more than one (Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit). Many Christians believe they are monotheistic but in reality they are not, if we were to do include them then we might as well include the Hindus who believe in a similar concept.
But who is to say what they truely beleive? I personally beleive that that task is left to Allah Himself, it is not for the subjects of God to decide who worships Him and who doesn’t.
Cuk,
You have to make your own choices. Believing in the Word of God or believing in the Word of Men. It seems that those who believe in the Word of God are seeking peace, tolerance and understanding, whilst those who are following the Word of Men are more prone to violence, intolerance and are less understanding. It doesn’t take a great intellect to figure out those on the right path does it? It is the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, who have segregated and isolated themselves, the followers of the Word of God have not.
My friend you are the one who is truely in a basket, one of your own making, whilst those of use who truely believe in the Goodness of our Lord are living freely in his Wonderous Creation, free to think, to learn, to make friends, to enjoy our lives, and most of all free to worship Him in a manner of our own chosing based on what we understand from His teachings.
Peace
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Pakmantri says:
tuan said:
Also, you have to consider that Christians do not believe in one God (note that the verse specifies a singular entity) as they are followers of more than one (Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit).
First of all it is “the son, the father and the Holy Spirit”. Get it right, mister!
It is what they call the “Holy Trinity”,
God is portrayed as the Son, it means that as the Son, God could feel the pain, the suffering and the struggle of all human.
God is portrayed as the Father, it means as all good fathers, God will always protect and provide guidance to His children (us human) in their darkest hours. It is up to us whether to follow God’s guidance or not.
God is portrayed as the Holy Spirit, it means that you have to have faith in God, you don’t have to prove the existence of God because if you surrender your soul fully to God you can feel God’s greatness and presence in your heart.
Sounds like God, Allah, Yahweh, Tuhan, Gusti Allah, Sang Hyang Widhi (this is what Balinese Hindu call God, fyi) etc, yang maha pengasih dan penyayang to me. Different language different name but to me He is the same God.
That’s my understanding, but hey, what do I know I am just an uneducated poor Indonesian Muslim who try to live in peace with everybody in Indonesia.
Peace.
P.S. If I believe that other religion believe in more than one God, doesn’t it mean that I myself believe in more than one God? One is my God and and those other people Gods ………… hmmmmmmmmmmm. Just a thought! 🙂
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First of all it is “the son, the father and the Holy Spirit”. Get it right, mister!
It is what they call the “Holy Trinity”,
God is portrayed as the Son, it means that as the Son, God could feel the pain, the suffering and the struggle of all human.
God is portrayed as the Father, it means as all good fathers, God will always protect and provide guidance to His children (us human) in their darkest hours. It is up to us whether to follow God’s guidance or not.
God is portrayed as the Holy Spirit, it means that you have to have faith in God, you don’t have to prove the existence of God because if you surrender your soul fully to God you can feel God’s greatness and presence in your heart.
To be honest..that makes no sense at all and I do not want to entertain talk about the trinity since it is beyond the scope of this thread. Granted all religions have issues with the outer-core (and their followers) but when the core of its belief requires mental gymnastics (The Trinity is not three gods. The Trinity is one God in three persons. The Doctrine of the Trinity does not state that God is one person. The Trinity is one God in three persons. The Trinity is not in the bible, yet its doctrine…..etc.). I just don’t think basic foundational beliefs require way too many illogical inconsistencies but different strokes for different folks.
P.S. If I believe that other religion believe in more than one God, doesn’t it mean that I myself believe in more than one God? One is my God and and those other people Gods “¦”¦”¦”¦ hmmmmmmmmmmm. Just a thought!
If you are an “Indonesian Muslim” you would know that there is one God and that others invoke him differently and/or conceptualize Him differently. Otherwise, you are probably, a “poor uneducated Indonesian Muslim” (your words, btw).
Asslamu Alaikum Bro Mohammed Khafi
But who is to say what they truely beleive? I personally beleive that that task is left to Allah Himself, it is not for the subjects of God to decide who worships Him and who doesn’t.
That is true but some things are made clear – killing civilians is wrong, corruption is wrong, pimping women, etc. Violating these gets you closer to disbelief and God’s anger, if you are a “Muslim”.
Walikum Salaaam
~Tuan – Indonesian-American Muslim
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Well, welcome back MK, you havent missed much…same old stories, same old biggots, same old ignorance and intolerance.
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Dragonwall says:
Show me that all Muslims are afraid. I am not.
Wait till you find out yourself.. Seen the slide on FPI’s action against those hawkers during Ramadhan?
Put that in the same position the Bahai being the hawkers and the Depdag and Uelamas being the FPI.
Then you tell us.. But first make an omelette without craking an egg.
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The King of Saudi Arabia and the protector of Islam Holly-land visited the Pope in Vatican last week. It was constructive. Two of the discussions: there should be no prosecution of Christians in the Arab-Middle Eastern and churches are allowed to be built (the world knows that Christianity originated in the Middle East before Islam). Further, One of most read magazine in the world, this week main topic is “The new wars of Religion”.
The major religions teach good deeds, the problem is that there too many “so called smart individuals” who can interpret the holly books, this world just need a few. A clean person body and mind should start/begin with: having etiquettes, keep the environment clean of paper plastic sampah, don’t pee or spit any where, teach manners and spent time with the children, don’t drive on the road like maniacs, respect the pedestrians, ride motorcycles/cars/ojek/kendaran umum with decencies and respect of others, eat with manners, only have children when they can be afforded the decent education. Look on the roads in Jakarta there are so many belligerent drivers, do they know decencies, probably not because their parents never thought them or simply don’t know better. The problems are countless and endless, fixed the problem on the earth first then we can define and speak about God better.
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Falcon said:
the problem is that there too many “so called smart individuals” who can interpret the holly books,
I don’t think this is quite true, I think the problem is that there are too many people who follow these misguided so called “smart people”, because they are either insufficiently educated, brainwashed or just plain lazy. Allah plainly asks in Al Quran “I have made their religion simple for them, are there none who will follow?” Rather than following the simple rules of their religion stated in Al Quran, they follow the “Smart People” who will tell them that their religion is too complicated for them to understand, and that they need to follow what they are told!
You are quite correct about the basic framework though, without good manners and a clear understanding of right and wrong, no amount of religious education will succeed, there is no point in building on poor foundations.
Assalamu Alaikum Tuan, you said:
That is true but some things are made clear – killing civilians is wrong, corruption is wrong, pimping women, etc. Violating these gets you closer to disbelief and God’s anger, if you are a “Muslim”.
Quite correct Tuan, but we were not discussing those issues, we were dealing with the matter of who believes in God, and only One can judge that.
Yes, everything you pointed out is wrong, and are all sinful acts, but are they not simple matters of right and wrong, good and bad, I think all the monotheistic religions agree on the basics of that do they not?
Peace
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Tuan,
……………………………………… naah, you are too “Smart” for me. Thanks, I guess. :=D
Ihankt said:
………………………. you haven’t missed much”¦same old stories, same old biggots, same old ignorance and intolerance.
Yap, and some are “sombong” and in Javanese “kebrebegen suarane dewe” (anybody care to translate please do so, thanks). :=)
M.Khafi,
Always love your comments and welcome back, you’ve been missed, o wise man.
Your simple poor Indonesian Muslim in Indonesia and proud of it.
Peace.
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Trims Pakmantri,
I don’t know about wise, they say that with age comes wisdom, but you would have to ask my wife if that is true or not, I fear not in my case.
The most important thing to remember is that the largest part of knowldege is that which we have yet to learn.
Some quotes to ponder over:
“A person’s true wealth is the good he or she does in the world.”
Mohammed“To be able to practice five things everywhere under heaven constitutes perfect virtue… gravity, generosity of soul, sincerity, earnestness, and kindness.”
Confucius (551-479 BC)“Deeds of kindness are equal in weight to all the commandments.”
The Talmud“Tenderness and kindness are not signs of weakness and despair, but manifestations of strength and resolution.”
Kahlil Gibran“Kind words can be short and easy to speak but their echoes are truly endless.”
Mother Teresa“Seek not good from without; seek it within yourselves, or you will never find it.”
Epictetus (2nd century)“This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.”
The Dalai LamaI would think that all of these people have been touched by the Goodness of God, it matters not what religion they profess, it is what they think and how they act that really counts.
Peace
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Mohammed Khafi,
Good quotes.
Just like my late “guru ngaji” (God bless his soul) said:
If you want to strengthen your faith in your religion, learn other religions. But learn them from the proper authority or the right source not from the street.And he was right, I haven’t change my religion and have more faith in God and humanity, stronger believe in my religion and respect others.
Peace.
Semper fidelis -
Sylvester says:
Just study some information about Bahai. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'Ã_Faith
Conclusion: Bahai is better than Islam.
Because:
1. Tolerance to others
2. Respect monogamist marriage
3. More peaceful
4. Many others -
Conclusion: Bahai is better than Islam.
Because:
1. Tolerance to others
2. Respect monogamist marriage
3. More peaceful
4. Many othersBut Islam better than Christian because:
Christian is
1. Reject polygamies but promote rapes, adultery and Pedophile
2. Busy Save other faith while let them self kill each other
3. Main Sponsor of All Mega Crime against humanity
4. Many others -
Conclusion: Sylvester is better than Cukurungan.
1. Uses research and knowledge to rationalise his views
2. Doesn’t resort to insults
3. Thinks for himself
4. Respects differing opinionsPeace
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Christian is
1. Reject polygamies but promote rapes, adultery and PedophileHAHAH!! And Islam doesnt??? what a joke.
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And what does “Christian is many others” mean? Learn English will you!? It’s Christianity, not Christian. Christian is a bloke who lives down the road dummy!
Against humanity? Hmmmm…who’s been blowing people up?? OH I know!! Muslims!!!
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Ihaknt
HAHAH!! And Islam doesnt??? what a joke.
No it doesn’t. Read your Quran again, if you are a “poor uneducated Indonesian Muslim”
Anyhow here’s…
Rape in the bible:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLTIncest In the Bible:
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.”33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I lay with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
Genesis 19:30-36 -
EDIT: I mistaken Pakmantri and Ikhsat….my bad. 😛
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Tuan, dont turn a blind eye. It happens in Islam too. Point is, no religion is better than the other. This attitude is why people fight all the time, coz one feels more superior than the others. [insert religion here] is better than [insert religion here] is not going to solve anything.
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Tuan,
You’re still wrong her name is not Ikhsat…..her name is short of I Hate Abulkarim N Triadi (IHAKNT) but actually deep in her hearts, Her name is IHAKNTBILC …”I Hate Abulkarim N Triadi But I Love Cukurungan”
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Stefan says:
@Tuan:
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 is about besieging a city. It means that women and children can be taken as slaves. Slavery is legal according to the Bible as well as to the Quran.
Deutoronomy 22:28-29 is about punishing a rapist. Of course he must only marry the victim if she wants it, not against her will.
Lot’s daughters thought that they were the last humans on earth after they were rescued from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. From their view tzhey had just the alternative of incest or extinction of manhood. The descendants of this incest were the tribes of Moab and Ammon which were enemies of the israelites. Scholars think that the story was told by the israelites to defame their enemies and so it’s not considered as God’s words. It doesn’t legalize incest for jews or christians.
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@Stefan
Deutoronomy 22:28-29 is about punishing a rapist. Of course he must only marry the victim if she wants it, not against her will.
by making the rapist marry the victim?
Lot’s daughters thought that they were the last humans on earth after they were rescued from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. From their view tzhey had just the alternative of incest or extinction of manhood. The descendants of this incest were the tribes of Moab and Ammon which were enemies of the israelites. Scholars think that the story was told by the israelites to defame their enemies and so it’s not considered as God’s words. It doesn’t legalize incest for jews or christians.
Then why is the word of man (falsified information) in a book that is considered the word of God?
You don’t have to answer them as they are rhetorical questions.
~Tuan Indonesian-American Muslim
Comment on “Bahai”.
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Tuan,
I already read for the resources you long ago. Again, no help since I have to deal with real people. A typical reaction if I mention those resources when I discuss certain issues with my fellow Moslems about certain religious rules is that they are different kind of interpretations and are not the true teachings.
I think what advices offered by academician in philosophical studies at least provide me a rough guidance on dealing with this issue. This is what they say: The ultimate truth cannot be proven, we can only believe it. Truths (knowledge) in the world are constructed. So, study the ‘truth’ (knowledge) constructed in every society. That’s the ‘truth’ in operation and we should develop strategies to deal with people based on that ‘truth’.
It is applicable to any society, not only Indonesia or Moslem. Many Christian people also tend to do the same way, constructing their own version of Christianity and force other to embrace their beliefs.
I always have a principle of assessing whether a person having a proper relationship with his/her Creator. The relationship is definitely reflected in the way he/she treats other people, whether they considered you as enemies or friends. A tree is judged by its fruits. Whether you are a Moslem, Christian, or you are your own god, the true in your belief can only be assessed by what you do for others. Do you do harm? Or are you a blessing to others?