Indonesian Muslims still have some way to go in learning Islam.
The minister of religion, Maftuh Basyuni said on 4th August that Islam did not teach violence or radicalism, and radicalism could not be allowed to flourish Indonesia because most people were opposed to it and it had no basis in the Quran. He advised people to not only read the Quran a lot but to learn it and understand it.
Maftuh Basyuni, jealous obsession.
Muslims must also give room for people of other religions, he said, because in the Quran it was written: “for you your religion, for me my religion”.
He was speaking in Ciawi, West Java, after laying the foundation stone for a printing press building that will be the first centre of Quran printing production in Indonesia, costing 26 billion rupiah to build and expected to produce about one million copies by the end of 2007.
My obsession is that within two years it will be printing five million copies a year.
He admitted to being jealous that Indonesia was the biggest centre of Bible production in south-east Asia, and hoped that the press could produce cheap, pocked-sized Qurans so that people could learn Islam anywhere. antara
Meanwhile in Jakarta former president Megawati Soekarnoputri, not ordinarily known as an authority on religion, spoke on a similar theme after appointing the first office-bearers of the PDI-P’s new Muslim political wing Baitul Muslimin Indonesia (Bamusi, BMI).
Megawati Soekarnoputri, there’s more to life than shopping.
She said it was peculiar now that Indonesia had entered an era of democracy and respect of human rights that some people went about committing violence in the name of Islam. The founding fathers in 1945 knew that sectarian conflicts were dangerous because they weakened the country and allowed colonialists a foot in the door. The violence that had occurred in Central Sulawesi, the Moluccas, and West Kalimantan should serve as motivation for Indonesian Muslims to learn what Islam was really about, she said. mediaindo
What part of Kali are u from? My sister-in-law is married to a Javanese born and raised in Singkawang, Kalbar and they still live there but his heritage lies in Sleman. You don’t need to answer this if you don’t want to, I’m just curious.
My family was originally from Nganjuk and Kediri. My grandpa (paternal) was sent to Kali on official duty but decided to stay on. I have immediate and extended families in politics so I will tell you in PM. Nothing secretive, just don’t want my them identified, so Deadwood won’t harrass them. haha.
_____________________
Zionist Dawud Farquhar’s failue to response to my last posts after his lastest blunder indicated that he had run out of tricks up his sleeves.
A reminder and advice to Dawud Farquhar (if he is still around):
A True Muslims should stand up to his own conviction and defend Islam whatever it takes. You huff and puff too soon.
Look before you jump. Find out why True Islam took hold and erased cultural identity of ancient Egyptians, ancient Persians and Central Asians; but failed badly with noble Mojopahitans and Borneo’s Dayaks.
______________________
Dawud’s Biggest goof of the day 🙂
Dawud wrote:
Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah because of its founding ideals and its traditionalist ooutlook. “¦
I took a closer look at the sentence and I believe Dawud must have mistaken ‘traditionalist’ for ‘purist’. LOL
Explanation of how Dawud goofed:
If NU is an Islamic organisation ‘with traditionalist outlook’ based in Saudi Arabia, then it is ‘infused with Arabian tradition’ which means sex with pre-teen girl, beheading after Friday sermon, women not allowed to drive, etc.
But the ‘traditionalist’ here means ‘infused with Javanese tradition’. That means love thy daughters, acceptance of other religions and no wife swapping.
I can’t wait for his next blunder. LOL
Aluang kejaweni writes;
>> Same rants, nothing new, still avoiding pertinent questions and still ashamed of your ethnicity.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with Islam, if you continue your wasteful questions, I will continue in the same wasteful replies. as for ‘avoiding pertinent questions’; I suggest you go back and read my answers and also the links that explain and answer your ‘questions’ that stem from your ignorance and your filthy mind. I am also still waiting for your answers. Such irony, lol!
>> You said you will be my neighbour which I gather you will be visiting soon.
Good to know that your grey matter is finally beginning to tick. Yes, I will be in KL next month and will be in Jakarta via S’pore in last March. I intend to stay for 5 months and oversee some charity work and social programmes that the organisations have drawn up in East Java.
>> I am from kalimantan. The Dayaks should be your top priority to seek a sweet vendetta as they purged the area of Muslims several years ago.
I’ve only visited Pontianak in Kalimantan, but I know a small organisation that is well placed in working with the locals to disseminate education. They are a very patient bunch of brothers who know the value of sabr and shukr.
>> It is the best place to get the Christians and Muslims getting at each other’s throat.
Here we are trying to promote peaceful co-existance through mutual understanding and respect with other fatihs and there you go on your murderous ambitions. Only a bloodthirsty non-patriot would be happy to see such strife. Tell me what you want to achieve for your Island and moreso where your loyalty lies?
>> Wait, it was combination of Dayaks(Christians, Muslims and Animists) versus Madurese (Muslims).
Correct, that is why the tragedy was not classed as a religious massacre but an ethnic one. This is why you did not see thousands of Muslim volunteers heading out to K’tan on boats. This is what misnomers and lack of education results in, where Muslims kill Muslims not knowing that it is Islam that defines them and not their ethnicity; which is more pertinent to teach in some god-forsaken parts of the country.
In classical Islam, most important items of ethnicity was the linage and the religion (or sub-sect). Ibn Khaldun (d.1406) finds in the identity of the linage, the source of the solidarity of the political group. And finds in the religion the function of strengthening it, to formulate his theory of state-building.
No everyone is a fan of trans-migration, but population density defines the national agenda, not some barbaric, blood-thirsty nutters.
Though Islam tried to minimise the significance of ethnic items in general, it didn’t deny them totally. The lineage was regarded as an element of the society so in the Islamic law, the linage is given the right of inheritance etc. If you have a considered interest in this subject matter, I can continue, but I think you are just bluffing.
______________________
Aluang continues:
>> Arabian tradition”¦
Pre-Islamic Arab traditions were treated with the same contempt as would have been Indonesian traditions at the time. The only exception (as I keep explaining) would be where the tradition and culture is supported by Islamic values. Islam is not a race-based religion but Islamic ‘culture’ is dynamic enough to accomodate local traditions on a tertiary level.
>> Zionist Dawud Farquhar’s failue to response to my last posts
come one Aluang, I have a life outside this board you know. In fact it surprises me how I get time to respond to people’s garbage here. But then again, I have a duty to right all the wrongs that are being disseminated in the name of Islam. Islam is not your personal domain and that is the one single reason why I come back here :^)
p.s keep you personal details to yourself, I have no interest in them. If you want to compare notes on ‘who we know’ etc. You’ll will be very surprised who I enlist amongst like-minded people with similar interests.
>> But the ‘traditionalist’ here means ‘infused with Javanese tradition’.
That is why it is important that we reinforce the traditions and values that binds the Muslims under the validity of Islam and reject the traditions and values that invalid Islam, simple really”¦ This could also mean that Muslims can continue to have good relations with the non-Muslims in Java based on mutual understanding and respect. Something which people in your part of the world may not implicitly have.
_______________________
Welcome back Lairedion. You are more than welcome to differ with me because this issue is neither one of life or death or detrimental to Islam either way. Detaching personal info from your post, there’s nothing really left for me to respond to, so its seems it was another wasteful exercise on your part.
>> IM is a blog for people with a relationship with and/or interest in Indonesia.
Oh I have interests alright, but even more important is the subject of this specific board and you should naturally understand if I don’t show much enthusiasm in involving a non-Muslim like you in it :^)
>> Dawud wants the NU to be his vehicle”¦
NU a vehicle for revival? What an novel idea”¦ Actually the key to islamic revival is not sideling Muslims (no matter how varying their schools of thought are), but networking with them in areas they excel in. Since you and other here that I’ve been responding to are non-Muslim, it really is none of your business how or what the revivalists work towards. The Dutch, with their racist politicians and intolerance towards their immigrants are the last to be advising others on what to do, lol.
Our approach to Indonesia is not single-tracked, all organisations working there (whether as part of NU or M’yah or others) are doing so under the reality of the economic and social differences that prevail. This is made complex further by differences of ethnicity and culture. Today, the real issue at hand is the dramatic upheavals in both the organisation of society and the construction of identity. These changes have caused Indonesia to forcefully reaffirm many of its longstanding cultural values, including secularism.
To all those who live on the margins of the social and economic system and who have to ask themselves what minimum values they might nonetheless share with their fellow citizens, it is vital to put an end to the discourse that bases itself on a conflation of race, ethnicity, religion, and poverty. In the long term, this conflation can result in serious political disturbances, and no one would want this.
___________________
khafir writes:
>> a simple question of transliteration
Not really, khafir doesnt really have a meaning in Arabic (pretty much like you) and the reason why I don’t address you by your first name is because you do NOT deserve to have that name. You don’t believe in his Sunnah therefore you are not worthy of it. Ironic hey! Although your beliefs are kufr, there may be a chance tha you can return to the hold of Islam once you reject your cult and its ideas.
>> Insulted The Messenger? How?
By denying that he is to be made the judge in all affairs:
“But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (trans of 4:65) – The believers are exhorted to “obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you” (trans of 6:59). And the necessity to obey earthly rulers is also stated.Ayaats 60-70 in surah Nisaa continues the message of obeying the Messenger, chastising the hypocrites who pretend to believe in Muhammad and Islam but refuse to come to him to judge their disputes. Allah tells Muhammad: “by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them.”
It is truly astounding to claim to defend Muhammad’s Quran, yet, reject his role as the receiver of the interpretation of the Quran. The fact is that the ‘Muslims’ who claim to defend Islam, yet, discredit the Prophet (S) are deviants who seek to insert their own understanding of the Quran according to their wishes and desires.
This is why it is essential for you to discredit Muhammad’s Sunnah and reject his Hadeeths that seem to interfere withtheir plan, by claiming to only abide by the Hadeeths that do not contradict theQuran, meaning, the meaning of the Quran according to them. They use their opinion as the guide with which to explain the Quran, and therefore, any Hadeeth that contradicts their opinion must be rejected.
“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allah.” [trans of 4:80]
“Allah has decreed: “Verily, it is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious.”Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty.” [trans of 58:21]
“”¦Then it is for Us (Allah) to give its Bayan (lit. its explanation, meaning, interpretation, implication, and so forth)”¦ [trans of 75:16-19]. In the Quran, Allah explains why He made a promise to teach Muhammad (S) the Quran in addition to its ‘Bayan’, by stating that: “And We have also sent down unto you (O, Muhammad) the Dhikr (the Qur’an), that YOU may Tubayyina (give the Bayan, or explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them” [trans of 16:44].
In the Quran, Allah made referring to the Prophet’s judgment in every dispute or difference that arises between Muslims the sign that distinguishes faith, by saying: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all their disputes and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [trans of 4:65].
The Sunnah has been preserved just as the Qur’an has been preserved. When Prophets and Messengers pass away, they do not leave their possesions as inheritance, they leave their knowledge and their Sunnah as inheritance.
___________________________________________
khafir writes:
>> I am not the one denying Allahs’ plain and simple words,
The Qur’an firmly lays the rules and regulations within the Qur’an as a means of guidance. These rules and regulation are examplified by the Sunnah so that we know ‘how’ to put the Qur’anic injunctions into practise. For example the obligations of salah, zakah, hajj and sawm are clear within the Qur’an. What is not given is how these duties are to be carried out, the rituals, the times, the manners of performance etc. This is only found in the hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah of the Messenger):
“It is He (Allaah) who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger (Muhammad) from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book [Quran] and wisdom [i.e. the Sunnah or Prophet’s words and actions] “” although they were before in clear error” [trans of 62:2]
The word hikmah (wisdom) is something that has been established to mean the sunnah as the Prophet and his Companions explained. We do not need to refer to deviant people and cults that were formed 700 years after the Qur’an was revealed to reinterpret the Qur’an and the reject the Sunnah that establishes every aspect of Islamic life.
“We have revealed the reminder (Qur’an) to you (O Muhammad) in order that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them, that perhaps they may reflect” (trans of surah An-Nahl 16:44)
p.s. I see you are continuing your cut and paste from submission.org infidels who reject hadeeth and sunnah. The references that you gave of Imam Ahmad and Khateeb Baghdadi are actually taken out of context and their meanings and explanations can be found in those same books that you quote. Because you have no access to those references and you do not know Arabic, you rely on submission’s lies and omissions. Again you will find some aspects of this discussed at: http://audioislam.com/?subcategory=Hadith
“Say (O Muhammad): “If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love youand forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” (trans of 3:31)
“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have sent you as a Shaahidan (witness), wa-Mubash-shiran (and a bearer of glad tidings), wa-Nadhira (and a Warner). And as one who invites to Allah [Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)] by His Leave, and as a Sirajan Munira (lamp spreading light, i.e. through your instructions from the Qur’an and the Sunnah).” [trans and meaning of 33:45-47]
“Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (Muhammad) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) “” he commands them for Al-Ma’ruf (all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Tayyibat (all things good and lawful), and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khaba’ith (all things evil and unlawful), he releases them from their heavy burdens and from the fetters that were upon them” [trans of 7:157]
“And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell, what an evil destination!” [trans of 4:115]
The words “and follows other than the believers’ way” is a direct reference to the Sahabah (i.e. The Companions of the Messenger).
“And We have not sent down the Book (the Qur’an) to you (O, Muhammad), except li-Tubayyina (lit. that you may explain clearly) unto them those things in which they differ, and as a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe” [trans of 16:64]
And this one might apply to you, so fear Allah and repent before it’s too late:
“O, Messenger (Muhammad)! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say: “We believe” with their mouths but their hearts have no faith”¦” [trans of 5:41]
@ Dawud
Ethnicity has nothing to do with Islam, …
Unless you are a Jew, of course.
Sura (5:51) – “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them …
… if you continue your wasteful questions, …
If you can’t answer anything, let your ‘like-minded’ compatriot answer them for you.
I will continue in the same wasteful replies. …
You have been doing that all along:
– My questions are ‘wasteful’.
– Fellow muslims who disagree with you are ‘non-Muslims’ and do not deserve a response.
– Non-Muslims here should not interfere or engage with Muslims vs. Muslims dialogue.
… as for ‘avoiding pertinent questions’; I suggest you go back and read my answers and also the links that explain and answer your ‘questions’ that stem from your ignorance and your filthy mind. I am also still waiting for your answers. Such irony, lol!
You are deliberately wishing my questions pertaining to Aisha go away. Let the readers decide.
Here is what goes round and round:
– I asked a question, you gave links.
– The links you provided are monologue blog which do not allow other readers to question inconsistencies.
– Since you are the one who provided the links , it is reasonable that I brought forth the inconsistencies to you because the authors don’t reply questions.
– But Alas, NO questions should be asked of you. Either I accept the explanations from the links without questions; or I am asking ‘wasteful’ questions.
– You are underestimating the shrewdness of Javanese.
I’ve only visited Pontianak in Kalimantan, but I know a small organisation that is well placed in working with the locals to disseminate education. They are a very patient bunch of brothers who know the value of sabr and shukr.
They hell better respect the Dayaks’ custom, not just sabr and shukr. Otherwise I can’t imagine the fury of the Head hunters against Arabizing. LOL
Here we are trying to promote peaceful co-existance through mutual understanding and respect with other fatihs and there you go on your murderous ambitions. Only a bloodthirsty non-patriot would be happy to see such strife. Tell me what you want to achieve for your Island and moreso where your loyalty lies?
Make up your mind. I see that you are singing a different tune now. Many posts before, your youtube link urged Muslims to hack their Christian brothers. I bet my last post ‘Jusuf Kalla will be keeping an eye out for you’ is working. LOL
_____________________________________________________
Dawud’s Goof of the Day.
Correct, that is why the tragedy was not classed as a religious massacre but an ethnic one. This is why you did not see thousands of Muslim volunteers heading out to K’tan on boats. This is what misnomers and lack of education results in, where Muslims kill Muslims not knowing that it is Islam that defines them and not their ethnicity; which is more pertinent to teach in some god-forsaken parts of the country.
You are caught telling little lie again. Don’t forget you are talking to a Kali local. Where were you during the conflict?
It is NOT TRUE that Muslim jihadis did not want to seek revenge. Though it was ethnic conflict, Muslims were murdered in hundreds. There were large scale calling for the blood of the Dayaks, and thousand Jihadis volunteers (local and aboard) gathered and waiting to set sail to Kali, BUT everyone was waiting for the other to make the first move. The fearsome reputation of the Dayaks chickened out even the most battle-harden Jihadis. Dayaks claim to even smell Muslims from a distance, and was eager to give the Jihadis a dose of their own medicine. They were kamikaze warriors centuries before the term were coined to the Japanese. Their reputation is second to none as the Chinese border patrol part of Khasmir. You stand a better chance of Arabanizing a Chinese than a Dayak. LOL
Deadwood and his like are making exactly the same mistakes as all the other followers of mainstream religions. the Jewish people were given Torah, but that was not enough for them they invented Talmud, and that is what they follow, The Christians whilst being given Injeel (The Word of God) instead follow The Gospels, a collection of recollected stories about the life of Nabi Isa. The mainstream Muslims, having been given the complete, perfect and fully detailed Quran, made up their own religion in the sunnah and hadith.
Torah, Zabur, Injeel and Al Quran, are all the same message. The message of Allah for his universal system Islam. A system of such simplicity and goodness, but which has been corrupted by mankind at every possible opportunity. Allah makes this clear in the following verses:
The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course. 2:285
And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them— Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 4:152
And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone. 2:41
And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith. 2:89
When it is said to them, “Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, “they say, “We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?” 2:91
Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah’s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,- 2:98
And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know! 2:110
It is He Who sent down to thee in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law and the Gospel before this. 3:3
Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: “I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help.” Allah said: “Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?” They said: “We agree.” He said: “Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.” 3:81
O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. 4:47
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; 5:48
And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers. 6:92
This Qur’an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book – wherein there is no doubt – from the Lord of the worlds. 10:37
There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe. 12:111
That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants – well acquainted and Fully Observant. 35:31
And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right. 46:12
They said, “O our people! We have heard a Book revealed after Moses, confirming what came before it: it guides (men) to the Truth and to a Straight Path. 46:30
What do Deadwood and his like have to say about this, even after so many verses saying that all Abrahamic revelations are one confirming the other?:
Islam was revealed in the Arabic language to be the last and complete message to mankind. It abrograted the previous ‘Abrahamic faiths’ and its preservation is promised by the Almighty in the Quran.
As to why Al Quran was revealed in the Arabic language? Simply because the Arabs would not have accepted it otherwise:
Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!” 41:44
Allah warns against those who twist His Revelation by fabricating stories:
Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. 6:112-114
Deadwood said:
The word hikmah (wisdom) is something that has been established to mean the sunnah as the Prophet and his Companions explained.
Established by who?, certainly not By Allah, who uses the word in many other verses, here is one relating to Dawud:
Fahazamoohum bi-ithni Allahi waqatala dawoodu jaloota waatahu Allahu almulka waalhikmata waAAallamahu mimma yashao walawla dafAAu Allahi alnnasa baAAdahum bibaAAdin lafasadati al-ardu walakinna Allaha thoo fadlin AAala alAAalameena
By Allah’s will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds. 2:251
Allah says that he will grant hikmah to anybody he wishes:
Yu/tee alhikmata man yashao waman yu/ta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi
He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding. 2:269
The people of Nabi Ibrahim were also given hikmah:
Am yahsudoona alnnasa AAala ma atahumu Allahu min fadlihi faqad atayna ala ibraheema alkitaba waalhikmata waataynahum mulkan AAatheeman
Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom. 4:54
Your twisting of the verses of Al Quran are exposed by Al Quran, they cannot stand comparison with the truth of Allah’s Words
Say, “As for me, my Lord has guided me to a Straight Path, the perfect DEEN of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater in any sense.” 6:161
Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> Unless you are a Jew, of course.
It is a sorry state of your mind and a show of your incompetence that when you fail to dissuade anyone from your ignorance, they suddenlt become ‘jews’; this is the kind of excuses you use to wash away your lack of knowledge, lol.
>> If you can’t answer anything, let your ‘like-minded’ compatriot answer them for you.
You don’t ask anything. You simply throw statements out in the form of questions and expect someone to waste their time in pointing this out to you.
>> Fellow muslims who disagree with you are ‘non-Muslims’ and do not deserve a response.
Oh they deserve a response alright, except that their ‘Muslimness’ will be judged by their beliefs and practise and the ideas they promote. If you expect Muslims to accept khafir as a Muslim for promoting the alien idea of rejecting hadeeth as a source of law, then both of you are kiddin yourselves, lol.
>> Non-Muslims here should not interfere or engage with Muslims vs. Muslims dialogue.
In short yes. It is not for non-Muslims like you or khafir to dictate to others what Islam is or should be. We are better aware of what Islam is and what it requires from us and our duty towards it.
>> You are deliberately wishing my questions pertaining to Aisha go away.
If that was the case, I would not have shown you the errors of your understanding and the facts that you deliberately miss out. The fact is that you are like a leech that saps people’s energy and likes to
This issue is a shut-case because clowns like you do not want to learn, they come here with a pre-medidated agenda to reverse the affect of Islamic da’wah by raising what you see as ‘uncomfortable questions’. They are not unfomfortable for any Muslim and all your lies have been discussed and repelled in those links. All you have to do is read the FULLY, and do not pick and choose one-liners and pretend that you have.
>> Let the readers decide.
Indeed :^) Are you afraid that they will see through your ignorance?
>> Dawud’s Goof of the Day.
Only if ‘you’ say so kejaweni, lol.
>> It is NOT TRUE that Muslim jihadis did not want to seek revenge. Though it was ethnic conflict, Muslims were murdered in hundreds.
Wanting to and actually doing it are 2 seperate matters. Whereas in the Mulukus, there was no debate of not going as all conditions had been met. Here it was different because they did not want to exacerbate the problem by killing Muslims in an ethnic war; not a religious one.
>> The fearsome reputation of the Dayaks…
Not really, some Dayaks are also Muslim and that is why the situation was not clear-cut nor condusive for the volunteers or satisfied the criteria off Jihad.
__________________________________
khafir writes:
>> “Why are not its verses explained in detail?
It’s verses are explained in the minutest of detail in the saheeh Sunnah that compliments the Quran. No verse has been ommited excpet that a tafseer is given of it by the Messenger and his sahabah.
If you think I am going to waste my Sunday afternoon responding to your cut and post garbage from submissio.org. you are sadly mistaken. This issue is also a closed case for the readers of this blog to judge and make their own minds. Ours was the job to put out a little information for their benefit. The choice is theirs too :^)
All you need to know is that today, a sect exists called ‘quranites who comment according to their whims and fancies; without seeking the explanation of the authentic Sunnah. They only accept and follow the Sunnah which suit their desires, the rest they throw behind. The Prophet (SAW) is reported to have said that: “None of you reclines on his bed, the order comes to him on an affair which I am commanded to do or not to do. He says: “I don’t know, what is found in The Book of Allah we follow, Surely, I am given The Qur’an and its example with it. Apart from the quranites (which is contradiction in terms), they also are called ‘submitters’ and there are a group of infidels in Pakistan called the Pervezies who say exactly as the Prophet (S) foretold. They firmly insist that the Qur’an is the only source of law to be followed. Thus, they neither consider the Sunnah a source of law, nor a regulation of our daily affairs. This has led to a consensus amongst Muslim scholars declaring (and rightly so) that the Pervezies are not Muslims. Neither are those who may not carry this label of being ‘Pervezi’ but still hold firm to the anti-hadeeth beliefs he laid down”¦
Allaah SWT says in the Qur’an: “We have revealed the reminder (Qur’an) to you (O Muhammad) in order that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them, that perhaps they may reflect” (trans of surah An-Nahl 16:44)
The word ‘reminder’ in this ayah in Arabic means more than the Qur’an and encompasses every aspect of Islam that Allaah sent down to mankind. Not only is the Prophet obliged to explain the Qur’an but also to explain its general and specific aspects of life in pratical terms.
By explaining the Qur’an through his words and actions, the Prophet through his Sunnah, gives us the best example of how this book is to be understood and practised. This is why Allaah says: “Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have the most beautiful pattern of conduct” (trans of surah Al-Ahzab 33:21)
Obeying Allaah is without doubt, obligatory. So when Allaah says:
“Whosoever obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah” (trans of surah An-Nisa 4:80), it should be clear that one has obeyed Allaah by obeying the Messenger. That is why the Prophet (saw) said: “”¦whosoever disobeys me, disobeys Allaah”[3]. Following the Sunnah is clearly an obligation upon every Muslim.
The obligation is stressed even more when Allaah says: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission” (trans of sura An-Nisa 4:65)
Also: “It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decreed by Allaah and His Messenger to have any choice in the matter. If anyone disobeys Allaah and His Messenger he is clearly astray” (trans of surah Al-Ahzab 33:36)
As Muslims we know that when Allaah or His Messenger decree something for us, it will always benefit us, even if we do not realise it. Thus, submitting to the Messenger is only there for our benefit and not to oppress us, as some mistakenly believe.
Allah also said: “And We have also sent down unto you (O, Muhammad) the Dhikr (the Qur’an), li-Tubayyina (that YOU may give the Bayan, or explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them” [trans of 16:44]
Now you see the importance of knowing classical Arabic to understand the Qur’an and its message in the first instance”¦
Before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (S), every nation/people on this planet had received a Messenger. The purpose of these Messengers was to instruct their people in how to worship Allaah correctly. The Prophet Muhammad (S) was no exception to this. If we had been given the Qur’an on its own, then most of us who are Muslims would have gone astray through our own interpretations of this book. Rather, Allaah through his mercy, sent a noble Messenger who came to explain this Qur’an so that the people of the earth may understand their Creator better.
__________________________
“We have revealed the reminder (Qur’an) to you (O’ Muhammad) in order that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them, that perhaps they may reflect” (Surah An-Nahl 16:44)
Our need for the Sunnah is so great, that without it our religion would be incomplete because it ‘explains’ the Quran as Allah asked him to do in the above ayah. In fact, this is the exact predicament which all the other religious scriptures find themselves in. Books such as the Bible and the Baghvad Gita, are so lacking in a divine explanation, that one can never understand (from them) as how to worship Allaah properly. As Muslims we do not have this worry, because the Sunnah is our divine explanation.
The Qur’an commands us to worship Allaah through prayer, fasting, charity etc, but it does not inform us of HOW these duties are to be performed practically. It is through His infinite Wisdom, that Allaah has sent us a practical example in the form of the Prophet (S) and his teachings. Without these, every Muslim would be making up their religion as they went along. I know for a fact that the Christians envy us Muslims because of the very reason of the Sunnah and isnad (chain of narration) as they wish they too had a comprehensive and intricate details of the life and means and methods of Christ (pbuh).
This is a blessing that no other ‘Abrahamic’ religion has and its loss meant that the very words and explanations of their Books were left to the personal liberty of each individual, whether a monk or a layman. Nothing is left out in Islam that is important enough to do; even the ettiquettes of going to the loo and washing after us has been explained in detail.
I am no longer prepared to continue this discussion because clearly you are having difficulties understanding the Qur’an and how its tafseer is to be performed. I have laid some vital information here and on the Day of Judgement, at least I will be free from my responsibility towards you and will have at least passed on the knowledge. What you do with it khafir, is your choice and you will be answerable for it.
http://www.qss.org/articles/status.html
http://www.islamlife.com/down/if-you-love-allah.pdf
As for the history and preservation of the Hadeeth, read from page 50 onwards here:
And also take time to listen to the 6 part ‘Usul al Hadith’:
http://audioislam.com/?subcategory=Hadith
It goes through the basic history of hadeeth collection and disproves your shallow theory of time-line.
khafir, I am not going to be caught up in your vicious circle if disinformation and not going to waste my time on this issue with you as clearly you simply can’t seem to grasp the very basic points what ‘sources’ of guidance and legislation mean. The information and links contained on this board is a good start for any impartial reader to judge and make up their own conclusions.
Adios.
Deadwood said:
“Why are not its verses explained in detail?
Somehow trying to use this as an excuse for reliance on hadith and sunnah, but the full verse reads:
Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!” 41:44
Despite the fact that Al Quran was descended in Arabic, Deadwood and the Mohammedans, still claim that it is not complete, perfect, and fully detailed as claimed by Allah. As Allah himself says: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes)…..
Say: “What thing is most weighty in evidence?” Say: “Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur’an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?” Say: “Nay! I cannot bear witness!” Say: “But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him.” 6:19
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. 6:38
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? – when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all6:114-115
We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur’an such as fear My Warning!
After telling us that His Book is complete, perfect and fully detailed, Allah also tells us that it is easy to learn and understand:
And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? 54:17
Would Allah, give us a complete, perfect and fully detailed book, easy to understand, and then expect us to follow thousands of hadith which are not included in His book?
Deadwood said:
even the ettiquettes of going to the loo and washing after us has been explained in detail.
What can I really expect from a self confessed convert to Mohammedamisn from Catholisism, somebody who once believed in Trinity and the need to direct all his prayers through Maryam. He now beleives that he has to go to the toilet and wash himself just as The Prophet did to achieve salvation! LOL
I am happy that you are leaving this discussion because despite my numerous questions to you, you have not directly answered even one of them, you have also descended to personal insult and name calling. Hardly true Islamic values, despite the fact that you consider yourself better than me, you have descended far lower in your personal acts and deeds.
Yes I agree let impartial readers judge, but looking at the amount of support which you have received here I would think that they already have!
One last verse for anybody who is thinking of following Deadwoods advice, this you will need to remember on The Day of Judgement, little good that it will do you though!
لَقَدْ أَضَلَّنÙÙŠ عَن٠الذّÙكْر٠بَعْدَ Ø¥ÙØ°Ù’ جَاءنÙÙŠ وَكَانَ الشَّيْطَان٠لÙلْإÙنسَان٠خَذÙولًا * وَقَالَ الرَّسÙول٠يَا رَبّ٠إÙنَّ قَوْمÙÙŠ اتَّخَذÙوا هَذَا Ø§Ù„Ù’Ù‚ÙØ±Ù’آنَ مَهْجÙورًا
“He has misguided me from the remembrance after it came to me, and the devil was always a betrayer of mankind!” And the messenger said: “My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.” 25:29-30
Zionists will have a field day if Muslims vs. Christians conflict continues.
Dawud Fraquhar is a Zionist, no doubt about it.
1) Could not reveal his ethnic identity. We traced his link back to Israel (check Walla.com). When exposed, he said that Jews now control most of the ISP. LOL
2) Portrayed himself as a True Muslim, yet done a runner. A True Muslim will hold out whatever it takes.
3) Gave a video link inciting violence against Christians saying many Muslims viewed it as sweet revenge; then did an about-turn saying he encouraged peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians.
4) Saying that True Muslim do not re-interpret authentic sunnah, yet he support a different version; then avoid questioning by me as being ‘wasteful’.
5) When caught in his own lies or blunders, anyone who refuse to swallow his craps are non-Muslim and not fit for discussion.
Below are blunders after blunders, amongst others.
1) Gave Poso conflict link thinking it was Kali conflict.
2) Saying Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah, because I told him that NU accepted the authentic sunnah.
3) Over 90% of the Dayaks involved in the conflict were Christians. The rest were Muslims and Animist Dayaks. I didn’t point this out to him, which prompted him to make another false statement that ‘Muslim Dayaks killing brothers should be re-educated on islamic principles’. LOL
You know, I kind of wonder how many people has made ‘zionism’ a synonym for ‘evil’ these days without even comprehend its real definition. 😆
As for me, I don’t know. I don’t get politics. Maybe it’s ugly, maybe it isn’t.
Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> Dawud Fraquhar is a Zionist, no doubt about it.
It reflects the sad state of a person’s mind who runs out of things to write about and starts to make childish accusations without having the stomach to make a civilised dialogue. Is that the reason why you are shut away from ‘civilisation’ where you live? Is it hard for you to socialise with people and make intelligent conversation?
>> Could not reveal his ethnic identity. We traced his link back to Israel (check Walla.com).
Ethnicity has nothing to do with Islam, but since you have been sulking for so long about this, I can tell you that I was born and bred in Edinburgh and my parents are Scottish by heritage and we live in London. They remain non-practising Catholics and have been very supportive of my conversion. Oh and I prefer tea over coffee, lol.
Walla.com is not a freebie email site that only Jews used, you are so ignorant.
>> When exposed, he said that Jews now control most of the ISP.
I did not mention ‘Jews’, I mentioned ‘Zionists’ and if you don’t know the difference between the 2, there is no point discussing any thing further with a dim-wit.
>> Portrayed himself as a True Muslim, yet done a runner. A True Muslim will hold out whatever it takes.
In case you are blind, I can record everything that I have written and post it over to you. p.s. I do have work you know and haven’t made this board my be-all and end-all. lol.
>> …then did an about-turn saying he encouraged peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians.
Its ignorant comments like this that makes people lose respect for you. I clearly made a poignant point about the need for mutual respect and understandings amongst the different faiths in Indonesia. Unlike you, I do not link ethnicity with religion.
>> Saying that True Muslim do not re-interpret authentic sunnah, yet he support a different version;
Different version? What on earth are you talking about? At this juncture I would advise the readers to go back and read my posts for themselves and not to be sucked into your lies. There is only 1 Islam and there is only 1 interpretation of it. The fact that we have so called groups and sects does not avoid the fact that they need to return back to the original sources and understanding. Now if a so-called ‘Muslim’ like you wants to make haram halal and vice versa, the sickness is with you and the cure in the Quran and Sunnah.
>> Gave Poso conflict link thinking it was Kali conflict.
Kali, Poso, Ambon: Wherever innocent lives are lost is a tragedy; you seem to miss the whole point in your quest to focus on cosmetics than the substance.
>> Saying Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah,
This is a personal opinion that I hold, if you hold otherwise, than good for you. It seems that your kejaweni ‘tolerance’ is dictatorial :^)
3) Over 90% of the Dayaks involved in the conflict were Christians. The rest were Muslims and Animist Dayaks.
That is why it was classed as an ethnic conflict rather than religious and the criteria of jihad was not fulfilled as was the case with Ambon. Remember that it was not only Christian Dayaks from Kali’n that wanted to put an end to Madurese immigrants.
On a political note, Megawati could have taken the stance of the PKS who were treading a moderate line between the 2 extremes that others were suggesting as a solution to the tragedy.
_____________________________
khafir, the Sunnah, the example of the Prophet (S) is the main source of our religious life, promoted and encouraged by the Qur’an. To cite a few verses:
“It is not for any believer, man or woman, when God and His Messenger have decreed a matter, to have the choice in the affair. Whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error.” (trans of 33.36)
“”¦Those who indeed believe in Our signs, those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, enjoining on them the good, and forbidding them the evil, MAKING LAWFUL FOR THEM GOOD THINGS AND MAKING UNLAWFUL FOR THEM BAD THINGS, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succor him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him – they are the prosperers.” (trans of 7.156-7)
“He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom.” (trans of 62.2)
What is meant by the Wisdom in the last verse is, according to most interpreters of the Qur’an and the Traditionists, the Sunna. The Qur’an, being of a miraculous exposition, is never otiose nor exceeds the proper terms: as Wisdom in the verse comes after Book as a separate word, it must refer to something different from the Book. The Book is the Qur’an and the Wisdom is the Sunna which expands on what is brief in the Book and clarifies its ambiguities, specifies what is unconditional and general and vice versa, so that general principles or specific rulings can be understood from what is commanded in the Qur’an.
The Qur’an in many verses enjoins absolute obedience to God’s Messengers. This obedience is not due to their person, but because of their mission as the ‘officials’ of God in guiding people to truth both individually and socially, materially, intellectually and spiritually.
“We have not sent a Messenger except to be obeyed by God’s permission.” (trans of 4.64)
“O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him.” (trans of 8.20)
And by no means the least, here’s another one to add to your list:
http://islamtoday.com/discover_islam.cfm?cat_id=6&sub_cat_id=41
________________________________
khafir, obedience to God means unconditional obedience to His Commandments in the Qur’an and His laws in life and nature. Obedience to the Messenger (S) is following his way in all the aspects of life, in practicing the Qur’an as he practised it and understood it and in all the orders of the Messenger. The Sunnah contains all the orders and prohibitions, warnings and encouragements of God’s Messenger, who said: “Take care! I have been given the Book and its like together with it.”
Ayah 20 of surah al-Anfal warns the Muslims not to turn away from the Messenger. Therefore, disobedience to the Sunnah, even belittling and criticising it, amounts to heresy and even apostasy (if it is said consciously and with conviction).
There are many other verses which emphasize the importance of the Sunnah, or following the example of God’s Messenger (S).
“O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you.” (trans of 4.59)
The verse stresses, besides obedience to God, obedience to God’s Messenger, and the repetition of the verb obey in the imperative mood points to the fact that the Messenger has the authority to command or forbid, and that the Muslims must carry out his commands and refrain from his prohibitions. Besides, where obedience to those in authority who share the same faith and feelings as the Muslims, is ordered, the Prophet has a far greater right to be obeyed.
Another verse:
“Obey God and His Messenger and do not dispute with one another, lest you should be dissolved (dispersed) and your strength fade away; and be steadfast.” (trans of 8.46)
According to this verse, the strength and unity of the Muslims lie in their submission to God and His Messenger. The Sunnah is the unique way or example set by God’s Messenger for the Muslims to follow. Also, it is through the Sunna that a Muslim can live according to the Qur’an. By putting the Qur’an into practice, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, established the way which the Muslims must follow. From this viewpoint, the Sunna is more comprehensive than the Qur’an and, without it, the Muslims cannot design their life according to the Qur’an. So, obedience to God is pos-sible by obeying the Messenger or by following his Sunna. This is explicitly stated in the following verse:
“Say (O Muhammad!): ‘If you love God, follow me so that God loves you.” (trans of 3.31)
Love of God is impossible for one to acquire without following the Prophet (S). No one can claim love of God, nor can he be loved by God, unless he follows the Sunnah.
Another verse:
“Surely there is for you in God’s Messenger an excellent example for him who aspires to God and the Hereafter, and mentions God often.” (al-Ahzab, 33.21)
In order to secure himself against any deviation and to follow the Straight Path without going astray, a Muslim must cling to the Sunnah of the Prophet (S).
One day a woman came to ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud and said: ‘I have heard that you call down God’s curse upon the women who have tattoos on their bodies, who pluck hairs on their faces, who force their teeth apart in order to look more beautiful, and who change the creation of God.’ Ibn Mas’ud answered: ‘This is to be found in the Scripture of God.’ The woman objected: ‘I swear by God that I have read whatever is between the two covers of the Book (i.e. Qur’an) but could not find anything in it related to this matter,’ Ibn Mas’ud concluded: ‘Our Prophet called God’s curse upon the women who wear wigs, who join somebody’s hair to theirs, and who have tattoos on their bodies. And, have you not read in the Qur’an: Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it? (59.7)?’ [saheeh Muslim]
The Qur’an also declares:
“Nay, by your Lord, they will never become believers until they make you as judge to settle the matters in dispute between them.” (trans of 4.65)
Kopral Geddoe Says:
January 14th, 2008 at 2:47 am
You know, I kind of wonder how many people has made ‘zionism’ a synonym for ‘evil’ these days without even comprehend its real definition.As for me, I don’t know. I don’t get politics. Maybe it’s ugly, maybe it isn’t.
I stand to be corrected.
To me, Zionists were European Jews with no roots to the biblical promised land, but on impulse decided to establish a Jewish state. They first look to South America, but then finally settled for their ancestral land sandwiched somewhere between Africa and the Arabian peninsula. They bought land mostly legally and some illegally from the then landlords who were mostly Muslims, expelled the local uninformed tenants and then fenced it off. The displaced ex-tenants with no place to go inturn harboured deep hatred, which is made worse by their Islamic teachings.
Jewish are business-minded like the Chinese. They are tough to negiotiate but they are level-headed people, and can be made to reason. I don’t see anything wrong with lands legally bought. Unfortunately, they are cursed by Allah swt and as per quranic teaching, they’re blood are halal. All surrounding Islamic states eager to please Allah swt are crying for their blood.
I do pity them, but I do not think we should get involved in their conflict. Indonesia with the world largest Muslims population is seen as a deserter within the world’s ummah for our nonchalant attitude and lack of support. As a payback, our Indonesian muslim maids in ME countries are treated as sex slaves and fair game to be tortured.
To the True Muslims, the only way to get us jihad against the Zionists is to feed us with pure Islamic studies.
To the Zionists, to offset the True Muslims’ misdeed, tried to create religious conflicts like what ‘exposed’ Zionist Dawud Farquhar tried to do i.e Muslims vs. Muslims; and Muslims vs. Christians.
As a True Indonesian, I tell both these group to get the F**k out of my land.
Deadwood,
I repeat The Prophet is Dead, he can no longer judge, give commands, or be followed. The only divinely protected example that we have of The Prophet’s Words and Deeds is Al Quran.
Sunnah and Hadith are neither divine revelations nor divinely protected, to say as you did:
The Sunnah has been preserved just as the Qur’an has been preserved. When Prophets and Messengers pass away, they do not leave their possesions as inheritance, they leave their knowledge and their Sunnah as inheritance.
The fact of the matter is, that if what you state is true, then Talmud and the Gospels are divinely protected, Allah quite clearly says that this is not true! Sunnah and Hadith are manmade and as such are prone to corruption and falsehood.
Allah tells us that Al Quran can be from no other than He , if it was it would be full of contradictions. Just look at some of the Hadith posted earlier in this thread, absolutely full with contradiction.
In addition the sunnah and hadith also defame The Prophet, the one you profess to love, how can you support such nonsense when they clearly portray The Prophet as a Paedophile, a psychopath and a woman hater?
The sunnah and hadith also contain contradictions to Al Quran itself! Do you remember the verse, “Who shall I take as a source of Law other than Allah, when it is he who has sent down this Book fully detailed?
I will repeat again that any reference to obeying The Messenger means obeying The Message, Allah never says obey Nabi Mohammed only Rasul Mohammed, The Message not The Messenger!
Instead of seeing Al Quran as a plea to mankind to return to Allah’s Deen you and your teachers see it as a command to continue following manmade falsehood.
You said
“He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom.” (trans of 62.2)
What is meant by the Wisdom in the last verse is, according to most interpreters of the Qur’an and the Traditionists, the Sunna. The Qur’an, being of a miraculous exposition, is never otiose nor exceeds the proper terms: as Wisdom in the verse comes after Book as a separate word, it must refer to something different from the Book. The Book is the Qur’an and the Wisdom is the Sunna which expands on what is brief in the Book and clarifies its ambiguities, specifies what is unconditional and general and vice versa, so that general principles or specific rulings can be understood from what is commanded in the Qur’an.
Of I see, so the book and the wisdom of the verse above are different from the book and the wisdom of the verse below? Both of them say Alkitaba do they not?
Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom. 4:54
Or do you still not see that Al Quran is a confirmation of what came before it? Torah and Zabur and Injeel and not a replacement!
Say, “As for me, my Lord has guided me to a Straight Path, the perfect DEEN of Abraham, the upright, who was no idolater in any sense.” 6:161
Oh Dear look at that! Allah has made another mistake, he said the perfect deen of Abraham, not the perfect deen of Mohammed !!! Shock !!! Horror!!!
You said:
The Sunnah contains all the orders and prohibitions, warnings and encouragements of God’s Messenger, who said: “Take care! I have been given the Book and its like together with it.”
But the hadith say:
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.
“Do not write down anything of me except the Qur’an. Whoever writes other than that should delete it.” Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171
Abi Said Al-Khudary said that the prophet said : “Do not write down anything from me except the Quran.”[Sahih Muslim Part 18, page 229, also Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171]
Abu huraira said that the prophet said, “The ‘Ummam’ (nations/peoples) that preceded you have gone astary when they wrote books and upheld them besides God’s scripture”. (Ahmed Ibn Hanbal).
Abu Huraira said : The messenger of God came to us while we were writing his sayings and said: “What is it you are writing?” we said “sayings (hadith) we hear from you messenger of God” he said, “A book other than God’s book?” then Abu Huraira said, “so we gathered what we had written and burnt it all”. (Taqyeed Al-Ilm, by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdady) also (Oloom Al-Hadith, by Ibn Salah).
See your sunnah and hadith contradict each other, you won’t find such contradictions in in Al Quran.
khafir writes:
>> I repeat The Prophet is Dead,
“The scholars are heirs of the Prophets. The Prophets do not leave behind an inheritance of gold and silver; they leave behind the inheritance of knowledge. Whoever acquired knowledge, acquired a lot of wealth.” [Saheeh Bukhari]
This is the reason why Allah says: “Ask the people of knowledge (i.e. those who possess the Message of Islam) if you do not know” (trans of An-Nahl 16:43) and also “”…If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW)…” [trans of Surah An-Nisa 4:59]
[deleted by admin – no copy paste.]
@ Dawud Farquhar
… Is that the reason why you are shut away from ‘civilisation‘ where you live? Is it hard for you to socialise with people and make intelligent conversation?
You want to talk ‘Civilisation’?
Look at my people – The Javanese Muslims. Google seach for ‘Pedophile’ or ‘daughter killing’ or ‘incest’. It is nil, zilch, and zero for Javanese Muslims; but hundreds and hundreds of hits on Pakistani Muslims, Iranian Muslims and Arab Muslims. Yet you tell me that we are on the Top 5 List for Islamic Re-education. You do have an agenda – a very Zionist one.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with Islam, but since you have been sulking for so long about this, I can tell you that I was born and bred in Edinburgh and my parents are Scottish by heritage and we live in London. They remain non-practising Catholics and have been very supportive of my conversion. Oh and I prefer tea over coffee, lol.
My questions are very straight forward and to the point. After 240 + exchanges, you finally decided to come out of the bush. If you were sincere to discuss Islam with us, we would have moved forward a long time ago. I have always assure you that there is nothing to be ashamed of.
Hope you understand me. As a Bule convert, we do not always trust white boy immediately. The inner circle of Osama Bin Laden did not have White representatives. They were usually the pawn. For me to further debate with you, I need to establish if you are not a Zionist spy, but another Muslim. Let’s see if I got you correct before we discuss further.
You are Dawud (formerly Peter) Farquhar from Edinburgh of Scottish heritage. You convert to Islam 10 years ago; and is convinced that Islam and only Islam is the True religion for all mankind; and that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is an examplary figure to follow as described in the authentic sunnah.
According to the sunnah, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) at age 53 married Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) at age 6; and deflower her at age 9. As an English man of Scottish descent, your country men and the established law of your land (United Kingdom) got it all wrong. Islamic shariah law allowing pre-teen marriage to middle-aged men should replace the existing law of your country which forbid underage marriage; and you, as a True Muslims will respect no other man-made law but divine shariah law.
Okay, we will go from here after you confirm yourself.
For readers who are not convince of the truthness of Islam, here is undeniable proof.
Deleted by admin – No copy/paste.
@ Dawud Farquhar
Go read the rules, no Copy and Pasting!
You said that my questions and points raised were of ‘No Substance’. But your replies were always ‘COPY N PASTE’. You are trying to weasel your way out by repeatedly COPYING N PASTING till I gave up, then you declare you WIN this debate. LOL. How can anyone take you seriously?
Here is a quranic verse suitable for Zionist provocateur like you:
432. “On the Day of Rising, Allah will hand over a Jew or a Christian to every Muslim and say, ‘Here is your redemption from the Fire.'” [Muslim]
Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> Look at my people – The Javanese Muslims.
You mean Muslims who are subsequently Javanese who have their own customs and culture like every other people who are Muslim around the globe. So long as their customs and culture is in conformance with Islam, there is no problem and no Muslim will object… In fact there are certain customs that I really like which I wished Scottish people would adopt.
>> Google seach for ‘Pedophile’ or ‘daughter killing’ or ‘incest’.
All of which have more to do with perversive mind and an ignorant culture. What you are unable to do is to make these evils stick to Islam nor its Prophet. Yours is an equally perversve mind that is constricted to Islamophobia rather than knowledge on Seerah and Islamic history. Sick people like you are found adozen in the world and the only cure for ignorance is knowledge, which you unfortunatley have no apetite to digest.
>> …you finally decided to come out of the bush.
How can anyone take you seriously when you make the whole basis of a dialogue based on someone’s ethnicity and then continue to make such immature remarks as to judge a persons ethnicity based on the freeweb email they use, lol! I have not come out of the bush but rather only to show how knowing my ehtnicity will make NO difference to the direction of this board nor to any alteration in our view-points. You only succeeded in wasting time.
>> As a Bule convert, we do not always trust white boy immediately.
We? You ain’t a Muslim so I don’t really care whether you trust me or not. My trust is solely in the Almighty and I do not try to please the creation if it requires me to displease my Creator. Capiche?
>> You are Dawud…
More than 10 years for your information. What I believe is the established consensual view. It is Islamophobes like you and khafir who want to alter the facts by promoting the reinterpreatations of your own cults. Barking alternative views to what orthodox Islam teaches is no different than what idiots like bin Ladin are attempting to do with their virulent khawarij’ite ideology. Both of you have failed already without reaslising it.
>> According to the sunnah…
As as an Islamophobe (an incompetent one at that) you are trying to force the age old lies and orientalist misinformation to stick, lol. How does it feel being on the ‘dark side’? Some enjoy it, just as your side-kick khafir. Both of you expect Muslims to believe that the Message (i.e. The Qur’an) is true yet the Messenger (the one was given it) is not truthworthy nor of a good character when Allah Himself has said about him: “You (O Muhammad) are of an exhalted character” [trans of surah Qalam 68: 4]
“You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of Allah.” [trans of Al-Ahzab 33: 21]
Ad yet you expect people like you to malign the Messenger simply because you do not understand the Command or the Wisdom behind something that your sick minds cannot understand? I think you might have a better chance to win over an Orang-Utan than convince others of your hatred of something that is common knowledge and openly accepted.
See you over the week…
Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> Go read the rules, no Copy and Pasting!
Its funny how I am not allowed to “copy and paste” from my own sources and from my OWN works, lol. Yet the admin is very casual with khafir’s post as if to tacitly promoting bias.
I don’t mind this at all and what I can do in the future is simply continue posting segments of my works and also supplying other urls to enable the readers to make their own conclusions on the topic.
Adios.
Deadwood said
:”The scholars are heirs of the Prophets. The Prophets do not leave behind an inheritance of gold and silver; they leave behind the inheritance of knowledge. Whoever acquired knowledge, acquired a lot of wealth.” [Saheeh Bukhari]
This is the reason why Allah says: “Ask the people of knowledge (i.e. those who possess the Message of Islam) if you do not know” (trans of An-Nahl 16:43) and also “””¦If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW)”¦” [trans of Surah An-Nisa 4:59]
Heirs of the prophets heh, so all Jewish scholars are telling the truth, all Christian scholars are telling the truth, all so called Islamic scholars are telling the truth?
I find this hard to believe, I will not go into the realm of Torah and Talmud, Injeel and Gospels, because you seem to have enough difficulty understanding the message of Al Quran.
I see you have to go to your discredited hadith even for a definition of knowledge, even if we accept your definition that it refers to those who posess the Message of Islam, I would question what is the message of Islam?, isn’t it clear to you yet that the message of Islam is not hadith and sunnah?, it is also not just Al Quran. The full verse is actually refering to rememberancers of the previous scriptures, it is also a confirmation that The Prophet was simply a man like the others sent by Allah before:
And We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad SAW) any but men, whom We inspired, (to preach and invite mankind to believe in the Oneness of Allah). So ask of those who know the Scripture (learned men of the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)), if you know not. 16:43
You cannot just cut and paste little pieces of verse to support your twisted interpretations, you have to take the whole verse and those either side of it to put it into perspective, you also need to remember context, it is the likes of Osama bin Laden, who have taken pieces of verse, and verses out of context, who are steadily destroying the Beauty of Islam.
Your use of hadith to support hadith is pathetic, you have to twist and turn like a snake to make one verse abrogate another, Al Quran doesn’t need that, complete, perfect and fully detailed as it is. It is immoral to use one lie to support another and it certainly doesn’t make it the truth.
Deadwood said:
Whether angered or pleased, God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, never spoke on his own; out of personal caprice or whim. Whatever he spoke, is a Revelation [explicit or implicit] revealed (see Surah al-Najm, 53.4)
The verse quoted again if taken in the perspective of the other verses around it is refering to Al Quran, unless you are suggesting that IT is hadith?
Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
It is no less than inspiration sent down to him: 53:2-4
I will repeat again, hadith and sunnah are nowhere promised protection from corruption by Allah. What makes you think that they are? Al Quran is the Message of God, what unearthly power makes you turn away from it to live your life according to Manmade stories ?
Deadwood said:
What I believe is the established consensual view.
Orthodoxy of course, just as you believed Catholic orthodoxy before this, but did that make the concept of trinity true?
Deadwod said:
Both of you expect Muslims to believe that the Message (i.e. The Qur’an) is true yet the Messenger (the one was given it) is not truthworthy nor of a good character when Allah Himself has said about him: “You (O Muhammad) are of an exhalted character” [trans of surah Qalam 68: 4]
Deadwood, do not confuse me with AAB, our views of what Islam is are very very far apart, it is just that we both disagree with you!
I have never said that The Messenger is not trustworthy or not of good character, are you so brainwashed that you do not understand simple English. I am simply saying that what you follow is manmade I simply do not believe that they are from The Prophet.
I seem to have started repeating this over and over again, Al Quran is Divinely protected. Sunnah and hadith are not, show me even one verse which even mentions the sunnah and hadith of Nabi Mohammed. The only perfect sunnah and hadith we have of Nabi Mohammed is Al Quran itself.
It is the sunnah and hadith which you follow which portray The Prophet as somebody not trustworthy and of poor character. As much as you deny them they are Sahih Hadith!
Deadwood used the phrase “common knowledge and accepted”, It was once common knowledge and accepted that the earth was flat, that did not make it so. Deadwood used to accept as common knowledge that God is Three, but that did not make it so. It was once accepted as common knowledge that man could never fly, again that does not make it so.
Deadwood do you know what Allah says about following common knowlege:
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie. 6:116
The only sunnah mentioned in Al Quran is the Sunnah of Allah, both before and after Nabi Mohammed:
This has always been Our Sunnah (course of action) with regards to those Messengers whom We sent before you, and you will find no change in Our Sunnah (course of action) 17:77
I seem to have started repeating this over and over again, Al Quran is Divinely protected. Sunnah and hadith are not, show me even one verse which even mentions the sunnah and hadith of Nabi Mohammed. The only perfect sunnah and hadith we have of Nabi Mohammed is Al Quran itself.
Where did you get that Al-quran divinely protected while we were fully aware God never send a complete sealed holy book to prophet or to anybody?
Lareidon,
Injeel, was the message that Nabi Isa conveyed, it was a verbal message, a reminder to care for the poor and dispossesed, the outcast and the unloved, his message of brotherly love, was a reminder to the Jewish people that they had forgotten the meaning of their original faith. He is after all know as “The Word” by Christians, and also described as such in Al Quran. He was reminding the Jewish people that they were letting their love of material things, ceremonial activities etc get in the way of the rememberance of Gods Law.
The Canonic Gospels, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are autobiographical in nature and were written some time after Nabi Isa’s death, some estimates are 60-70 years after.
The Synoptic Gospels, Mathew, Mark and Luke bear a relationship one to another with regard to the life of Nabi Isa, with some differences. However they do not portray Nabi Isa as part of the goodhead, it is only in the later Gospel of John that Nabi Isa starts to be deified, in fact it was not until the Council of Nicea that the concept of Trinity actually became church orthodoxy, this council was not held until 325 AD!
We must not forget that there were many gospels written after the death of Nabi Isa, many of which were suppressed by the church authorities as they challenged the concept of Trinity. These Gospels although holding Nabi Isa in the highest regard as a Prophet, none the less still represented him as a human figure rather than as divine.
Peace
—————————————————————————————————–
Cuk asks:
Where did you get that Al-quran divinely protected while we were fully aware God never send a complete sealed holy book to prophet or to anybody?
And where did you get that information Cuk? God never send a complete sealed holy book to prophet or to anybody? From your teachers again? Are they just using that to ensure that their sunnah and hadith can be included as part of divine scripture?
Al Quran answers:
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it. 15:9
That this is indeed a Qur’an Most Honourable, In a Book well-guarded, 56:76-77
Nay, but it is a glorious Qur’an. In a Tablet Preserved! 85:21-22
Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise. 41:41-42
Deadwood,
Just in case you need another reminder of what Allah wishes you to follow:
الذين امنوا وتطمئن قلوبهم بذكر الله الا بذكر الله تطمئن القلوب
Allatheena amanoo watatma-innu quloobuhum bithikri Allahi ala bithikri Allahi tatma-innu alquloobu
Literal Those who believed, and their hearts/minds became assured , with God’s reminder , is it not with God’s reminder the hearts/minds become assured ? 3:28
I have used a literal translation just so there can be no twisting of the original arabic meaning. Just what is God’s reminder, does he tell us?
اولم يكÙهم انا انزلنا عليك الكتاب يتلى عليهم ان ÙÙŠ ذلك لرØÙ…Ø© وذكرى لقوم يؤمنون
Awa lam yakfihim anna anzalna AAalayka alkitaba yutla AAalayhim inna fee thalika larahmatan wathikra liqawmin yu/minoona
Literal Was (it) not enough/sufficient for them that We descended on (to) you The Book (it) is being read/recited on (to) them, that in that (is) mercy (E) and a remembrance/reminder to a nation believing. 29:51
khafir writes:
>> Heirs of the prophets heh
You can sulk and show disrespect to the Messenger’s word all you like, this will not change fact into fiction. Non-Muslims like you are a new breed of orientalists who attempt to destroy Islam from ‘within’. You claim one thing yet your words contradict what you claim to be.
He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (trans of al-Jumu’a, 62:2)
What is meant by the Wisdom in the last verse is, according to most interpreters of the Qur’an and the Traditionists, the Sunna. The Qur’an, being of a miraculous exposition, is never otiose nor exceeds the proper terms: as Wisdom in the verse comes after Book as a separate word, it must refer to something different from the Book. The Book is the Qur’an and the Wisdom is the Sunna which expands on what is brief in the Book and clarifies its ambiguities, specifies what is unconditional and general and vice versa, so that general principles or specific rulings can be understood from what is commanded in the Qur’an.
The Qur’an in many verses enjoins absolute obedience to God’s Messengers. This obedience is not due to their person, but because of their mission as the ‘officials’ of God in guiding people to truth both individually and socially, materially, intellectually and spiritually.
We have not sent a Messenger save to be obeyed by God’s leave. (al-Nisa’, 4.64)
O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him. (al-Anfal, 8.20)
Obedience to God means unconditional obedience to His Commandments in the Qur’an and His laws in life and in the operation of the universe. Obedience to the Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings, is following his way in all the aspects of life, in practicing the Qur’an, and in all the orders of the Messenger besides the Qur’an.
Were the traditions recorded in the time of the prophet himself?
khafir writes:
>> I have used a literal translation
You know know Arabic so you are neither in a position to judge the translation nor its classical tafseer that is well established and endorsed by the Messenger (S) and the earliest Muslims themselves.
Did the Prophet draw the attention to the Sunnah? The way of the Prophet is the way of God, so following his way means walking in the luminous atmosphere of the Divine Message. For this reason, rejection of the Sunna implies disobedience to God. This is stated by the Prophet himself: “Whoever obeys me, obeys God; and whoever disobeys me, disobeys God.” [Saheeh Bukhari kitab al Ahkam, 1; Ibn Ma’ja in ‘Muqaddima’, 1]. Such a disobedience results in punishment of Hell as he said: “The whole of my nation will enter Paradise, except those who refuse.” When asked who would refuse, the Prophet answered: ‘Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise; and whoever disobeys me surely has rebelled.’ [Saheeh Bukhari kitab al I’tisam, 2; Ahmad, 2.361.]
“So, believe in God and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet who believes in God and His words, and follow him so that you may be guided.” (trans of 7:158)
“Say (O Muhammad); If you do love God, follow me so that God may love you.” (trans of 3:31)
As explained earlier, the Sunnah is the link between the Muslims of the first generation and the future. Only by preserving and following the Sunnah can the Muslims maintain the divine link and unity. Concerning this, God’s Messenger declares: “Those who, among you, survive me will witness many disputes and disagreements. It is, therefore, incumbent upon you to follow my way and the way of my rightly-guided and rightly-guiding successors. Hold firm to that way, cling to it with your teeth.” [Sunan Abu Dawud, kitab Sunna, 5; Tirmidhi kitab ‘Ilm, 16; Ibn Ma’ja in ‘Muqaddima’, 6].
The Messenger states that at a time when the Muslim community breaks with Islam and consequently disintegrates, the one who holds firm to his Sunnah gains the reward. [Abu Nu’aym Hilya, 8.200; Daylami, Musnad al-Firdaws, 4.198.]
The Sunnah being so important and vital in the maintenance of the Islamic life, whether individually or collectively, those who still dare to criticise it or question its validity should be asked, as the Qur’an asks unbelievers: “Where are you headed?” Other hadiths drawing the attention to the importance of following the Sunnah:
“The best of words is the Book of God and the best of ways to follow is the way of Muhammad. The worst of affairs is innovations (against my Sunnah). Each innovation is a deviation.” (Saheeh Muslim, kitab Jumu’a, 43; Sunan Nasa’i in ‘Iydayn, 22; Abu Dawud kitab Sunna, 5.)
“Everyone of my Umma will enter Paradise, except the one who rebels. ‘Who is the one who rebels, O Messenger of God?’ they asked. He replied: ‘Whoever obeys me will enter Paradise; whoever disobeys me has rebelled.” (Saheeh Bukhari, I’tisam, 2.)
“The like of me in respect of my Ummah is the like of the man who has lighted a fire. Insects and butterflies flock into it. I hold you by the garmets [to keep you away from the fire] but you pull yourselves into it.” (Saheeh Muslim kitab Fada’il, 17,18; Saheeh Bukhari kitab Riqaq, 26)
“Let me not find any of you seated in their armchairs, who when something I ordered or something I forbade is reported to them, respond: ‘We have no knowledge of it. So, we follow whatever we find in the Book of God.” (Sunan Abu Dawud in kitab Sunna, 5; Ibn Ma’ja in ‘Muqaddima’ 2; Tirmidhi kitab al ‘Ilm, 10)
“Take care! Surely I have been given the Book and its like together with it. (Sunan Abu Dawud in kitab Sunnah, 5).
During the Last Sermon on mount Arafat, the Messenger explicitly stated: “I have left to you two precious things – you will never go astray as long as you hold fast to them – the Book of Allah and my Sunnah.” (Imam Malik in Muwatta’)
He did not say that you ‘might go astray’, the words are ‘never go astray’. It is laughable that hypocrites would emerge 700 years later to throw doubt on the fundamental aspects of Islamic sources and legislation and 700 years after that, malice individuals like khafir would take the torch of the kafirs and attempt to make the same accusations that are indefensible in either Islamic history, seerah, tafseer nor in the Arabic language or classical texts that you know nothing of.
And where did you get that information Cuk? God never send a complete sealed holy book to prophet or to anybody? From your teachers again? Are they just using that to ensure that their sunnah and hadith can be included as part of divine scripture?
Tell me what is your prove that God ever send a holy book to prophet and how many page and how thick is the God made book? I mean a real book either the book made from the paper sheet or it made from the gold plate and not as message or “Wahyu”
Al Quran answers:
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it. 15:9
That this is indeed a Qur’an Most Honourable, In a Book well-guarded, 56:76-77
Nay, but it is a glorious Qur’an. In a Tablet Preserved! 85:21-22
Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise. 41:41-42
How do you know that the above verses is from Quran ? Did God tell directly to you that the above verses come from Quran? or Jew told to you that those verses from Quran?
Copyright Indonesia Matters 2006-2025
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact
Kafir…. Khafir… a simple question of transliteration, same meaning , same intent!
But the simple truth is that the term more aptly applies to Deadwood, He is the one who is ‘hiding the truth’ of the simplicity and perfection of Al Quran.
Deadwood said:
Insulted the content of Quran?….. By upholding the fact That Allah tells us it is complete, perfect and fully detailed, and asks us what hadith we will believe after it?
I am not the one denying Allahs’ plain and simple words, it is Deadwood and his insistence that it is not complete, perfect, and fully detailed, and needs sunnah and hadith to explain it.
Insulted The Messenger? How? By Describing him as follows:
“The Prophet, was a man of great wisdom, and bravery, a fair, just and honest man, who upheld the ideals of Islam, the religion of Abraham. He fought against injustice, and poverty, he encouraged his people to learn, he introduced equality for women, he stood up for his people, no matter what faith they were if they believed in The One God.”
It is sunnah and hadith which describe him as a paedophile, a psychopath, a sex maniac, and a woman hater, yet Deadwood still choose to believe them ?
Deadwood said:
Following The Messenger is following The Message, Al Quran, it is protected By Allah, sunnah and hadith are not, and to prove this fact they are full of insults to The Prophet, they are also full of contradictions.
Even the most widely witnessed event in all of The Prophets life, his last sermon, which was witnessed by thousands of people, has three version in hadith, and they are all sahih, they cannot all be correct !
An event witnessed by thousands, and subjected to the full provisions of “THE SCIENCE OF ISNAD” and there are still three verisons? Hah! What a joke! What hope can there be for things The Prophet said or did which were only witnessed by one person.
As I have said before, the Word of God is sufficient for me!
I have made one cut and paste from submission.org, but a site I seldom visit because of the influence of Rashid Khalifa, whose teachings I reject. Deadwood cannot discredit me in that way, it will not work.
I wonder why he still has no answers for all the questions I have asked?
As Deadwood has proven that he rejects the word of Allah, when Allah says His Al Quran is complete, perfect, and fully detailed. And has shown that he will blindly accept hadith, even if they paint The Prophet as a Paedophile, perhaps he will tell us if he accepts these excerpts from hadith:
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.
“Do not write down anything of me except the Qur’an. Whoever writes other than that should delete it.” Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171
Abi Said Al-Khudary said that the prophet said : “Do not write down anything from me except the Quran.”[Sahih Muslim Part 18, page 229, also Ahmed, Vol. 1, Page 171]
Abu huraira said that the prophet said, “The ‘Ummam’ (nations/peoples) that preceded you have gone astary when they wrote books and upheld them besides God’s scripture”. (Ahmed Ibn Hanbal).
Abu Huraira said : The messenger of God came to us while we were writing his sayings and said: “What is it you are writing?” we said “sayings (hadith) we hear from you messenger of God” he said, “A book other than God’s book?” then Abu Huraira said, “so we gathered what we had written and burnt it all”. (Taqyeed Al-Ilm, by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdady) also (Oloom Al-Hadith, by Ibn Salah).
I guess Deadwood won’t have any problem rejecting these as he rejects Allah’s plain and simple words in Al Quran.