Indonesian Muslims still have some way to go in learning Islam.
The minister of religion, Maftuh Basyuni said on 4th August that Islam did not teach violence or radicalism, and radicalism could not be allowed to flourish Indonesia because most people were opposed to it and it had no basis in the Quran. He advised people to not only read the Quran a lot but to learn it and understand it.
Maftuh Basyuni, jealous obsession.
Muslims must also give room for people of other religions, he said, because in the Quran it was written: “for you your religion, for me my religion”.
He was speaking in Ciawi, West Java, after laying the foundation stone for a printing press building that will be the first centre of Quran printing production in Indonesia, costing 26 billion rupiah to build and expected to produce about one million copies by the end of 2007.
My obsession is that within two years it will be printing five million copies a year.
He admitted to being jealous that Indonesia was the biggest centre of Bible production in south-east Asia, and hoped that the press could produce cheap, pocked-sized Qurans so that people could learn Islam anywhere. antara
Meanwhile in Jakarta former president Megawati Soekarnoputri, not ordinarily known as an authority on religion, spoke on a similar theme after appointing the first office-bearers of the PDI-P’s new Muslim political wing Baitul Muslimin Indonesia (Bamusi, BMI).
Megawati Soekarnoputri, there’s more to life than shopping.
She said it was peculiar now that Indonesia had entered an era of democracy and respect of human rights that some people went about committing violence in the name of Islam. The founding fathers in 1945 knew that sectarian conflicts were dangerous because they weakened the country and allowed colonialists a foot in the door. The violence that had occurred in Central Sulawesi, the Moluccas, and West Kalimantan should serve as motivation for Indonesian Muslims to learn what Islam was really about, she said. mediaindo
Iamisaid, You should also know except a few like MK for instance, most of them tends to talk rubbish and since you knew that this blogs are for people to make fun of one another. Judging from their comments much of them are not that highly educated because I gauge them through their comments, words use, and expression they display.
So, why take them at heart.
The other thing is that since the eruption when the Yusril Ihza Mahendra corruption case came to light when rebutted by the person himslef, IM moderators tend to shy and chicken away to sensitive issue.
By right if it is the truth and there are that many people genuinely interested in Indonesian affairs then they should go more into the topi rather than defraying then drop another bomb elsewhere.
This is quite an unbecoming attitude of some of those bloggers.
Come on iamisaid don’t take too seriously with this deadwud character.
Same old Singaporean cukong rantings. If Yusril Ihza Mahendra contacted you and offer you lucratic contracts, you will desert your own kind. Same as Harto murdered and raped your own kind, but if he is to offer you sweetener, you will be licking from his feet. Brown man don’t do that.
Deadwood said:
once wealthy, powerful and influential status were erased overnight.
Correct, indeed after they moved away from their proclaimed faith and began to clamour after the luxuries of this life and flung the teachings of Islam behind their backs, they realised the wrath of their Creator. The cause of the weakness of the Muslims is due to their having left the clear and pure religion of Islaam. When you leave it, you leave eveything that gives you success and brings only misery and occupation and destruction.
At last he has said something true. They abandoned the complete, perfect and fully detailed Quran, which Allah tells us is all we need, for their Sunnah and Hadith inspired religion, turning from The Deen of Allah, Islam, to Mohammedism.
Deadwood also said
:>> Firstly The Prophet Himself was urged to consult with the people:
Really? How do you know when you don’t believe in the Sunnah and hadeeth!? LOL !!
Because thats what Al Quran tells me:
Thus it is due to mercy from Allah that you deal with them gently, and had you been rough, hard hearted, they would certainly have dispersed from around you; pardon them therefore and ask pardon for them, and take counsel with them in the affair; so when you have decided, then place your trust in Allah; surely Allah loves those who trust. 3:159
Hello my Indonesian fellas, Peace be upon you. I wish everyone have more fortunate and blessed new year 2008.
I think the real issue on this matter is the government standpoint represented by the Minister of Religion: “He admitted to being jealous that Indonesia was the biggest centre of Bible production in south-east Asia, and hoped that the press could produce cheap, pocked-sized Qurans so that people could learn Islam anywhere.”
Do we really need a religious department in my country, Indonesia? Is it really of useful for Indonesian citizens?
I still have many more question in regards of functions and effectiveness of the Religious Department in Indonesia. Let’s take a look the past. The major mass Organizations in Indonesia such as Nahdatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah have a different Idul Fitri, the most important and sacred day after Romadon, set by the Department of Religion, and this happens more than once.
I believe it is better that the state does not interfere with the practical religious beliefs and to leave such things to each individual. The Indonesian Constitution, UUD 1945, does not require the government to create the Religious Department. Chapter 29 of the Constitution guarantees to protect each citizen to practice their faiths and beliefs.
There are lots of important matters for the Indonesian Government to deal with: democracy, economy, education, corruption, investment, healthcare, poverty, welfare, natural resources, etc. Allow every single citizen to determine their beliefs system and practice them. It is very clear to me that Indonesia will remain strong without a religious department. Terima kasih.
Deadwood said:
The science of isnad (chain of nattations) is a proven science through which I can easily distinguish weak or fabricated hadeeth with those that can be traced right back to the Prophet.
A Beginners guide to ‘The Science of Isnad’
Quotes from “The Historical Debate“
In order to give credibility to a hadith, or a narrative, a list of names was attached to each document supposedly designating through whom the hadith had been passed down. It was a chain of names of transmitters, stating, I received this from ____ who obtained it from ____ who got it from a companion of the prophet.’
A compiler, in order to gain credibility for his writings, would list historically well-known individuals in his Isnad, similar to the custom we use today of requesting noteworthy individuals to write forwards in our books. The larger the list within the chain the greater its credibility. But unlike those who write forwards today, the ninth century compilers had no documentation to prove that their sources were authentic. Those individuals whose names they borrowed were long dead, and could not vouch for what they had allegedly said.
It is rather obvious, therefore, that the isnads rather then corroborating and substantiating the material which we find in the Muslim traditions, present instead an even greater problem. We are left with the realisation that without any continuous transmission between the seventh and eighth centuries, the traditions can only be considered a snapshot of the later ninth and tenth centuries and nothing more.
What is more, the science of Isnad, which set about to authenticate those very Isnads only began in the tenth century, long after the Isnads in question had already been compiled. Consequently, because it is such an inexact science, the rule of thumb’ for most historians today is: the larger the list, which includes the best known historical names, the more suspect its authenticity.’ We will never know, therefore, whether the names listed in the Isnads ever gave or received the information with which they are credited.
Nothing but Heresay!
iamisaid writes:
>> Before I take leave from this forum, I would like to part with this post.
Although we had our fatalistic differences, it was fun to part with some information to you and to read your replies (or the lack of). It was a reflection of your psyche that was interesting to see; confusing and conjectural at times.
>> I was more and more convinced of the adversary’s intractability by the contempt that the adversary showed towards Muslims.
You dont’ have to be too hard on yourself. In fact if you are sincere about learning about Islam, then simply consult mainstream sources and do your own research. If you have any problems or questions about it, take them to a qualified person and not any tom, dick or harry off the street nor any cult. You, as a non-Muslim cannot define for others what a ‘Muslim’ is.
>> Contempt towards proffered examples of Muslims whom I know that practise their Faith as well as the contempt that was shown towards others Muslims who were in discussion.
‘proffered examples’? ‘towards others Muslims’? You can’t have it both ways dude… You cannot give out false information on one hand and then expect Muslims to accept it at face value. You can neither speak in a tone of authority nor on behalf of a faith that you yourself are not a part of. You, as a non-Muslim cannot define for others what a ‘Muslim’ is.
>> It was indeed a strange encounter especially gauging from the recent discoveries about the adversary.
If you had spent more time on learning Islam and less time of trying to find out who and where I am, maybe you would have made positive contributions here. My diversified interests is not an impediment to my faith nor my learning. You should have understood this correlation from the onset.
>> I knew that he would jump on that and accuse that it is abusive. Is it not also abusive to be ridiculing the Faith of others?
Faith of others? I told you that I was Roman Catholic before I embraced Islam and you will not find a single instance on this board where I abused Christianity or any other faith. My so-called ‘abuse’ was directed at cults that claim to be Islamic and cult-followers who claim to be Muslim. I believe it is none of your concern (being that you are a non-Muslim) to be interpreting for me what Islam is when the cults have themselves tried to disfigure Islam beyond recognition. No Muslim would tolerate an abuse on their faith by cults and heretical ideas that your alter-ego khafir purports.
What is hilarious is how you are contemptious to Islam and run to the aide of those who also show this same contempt yet while declaring themselves to be adherents of it, lol.
>> If you were tell me to do something that is not feasible, how could I consider that to be abusive?
So now you can use this same logic and apply it to the actions of others and how they can easily use this same justification for their acts.
>> You know as the discussion progressed, almost everything that the adversary posted appeared as a huge black spot on my computer screen.
That is because of your insincere and pre-medidated approach to the whole discussion from the very start. You were not here to learn or rebut facts with facts and evidence with evidence, you were simply repeating the age-old stereotypes and the age-old lies. No Muslim could tolerate that either without having a befitting reply.
>> Christian Axiom 1: “Love thy enemies.” (Matthew 5:38)
Maybe you should take this verse and teach it to your bretheren in the Muluku or Sulewesi. Better still, take it to the Christian missions in the US that train and then infest Muslim countries with their posion: http://www.islamworld.net/tanseer.htm
Adios and good luck.
In awe and silence I have been watching this topic unfold without interfering but I’m beginning to wonder if Mr. Dawud Farquhar – I remember he also posted a couple of comments in earlier threads – isn’t in fact a munafiq, a Christian who adopted the Islamic practice of ‘taqiyyah’ in order to defame and ridicule the faith he pretends to defend. Otherwise I fail to comprehend how a person with an apparent education could seriously believe the nonsense he is promulgating.
Unless of course he has other problems.
I remember he also posted a couple of comments in earlier threads – isn’t in fact a munafiq, a Christian who adopted the Islamic practice of ‘taqiyyah’ in order to defame and ridicule the faith he pretends to defend. Otherwise I fail to comprehend how a person with an apparent education could seriously believe the nonsense he is promulgating.
Beli Anom,
Why do you think Islam need a protection? Protection from what”¦ we Muslim just do nothing and go f***king because no one dare to touch Islam in the real life ….don’t you think so?
Deadwood said:
In fact if you are sincere about learning about Islam, then simply consult mainstream sources
However Al Quran clearly warns about blindly following:
When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah hath revealed:” They say: “Nay! we shall follow the ways of our fathers.” What! even though their fathers Were void of wisdom and guidance? 2:170
Allah also warns us that just because a majority may be following a particular way that it is not necessarily the correct way:
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie. 6:116
Allah clearly in this following verse describes the followers of the hadith and sunnah, the Mohammedans:
What! have they partners , who have established for them some religion without the permission of Allah? Had it not been for the Decree of Judgment, the matter would have been decided between them (at once). But verily the Wrong-doers will have a grievous Penalty. 42:21
Another warning for the followers of sunnah and hadith:
045.002
The revelation of the Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.
Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.
And in the alternation of Night and Day, and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds,- are Signs for those that are wise.
Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
Woe to each sinful dealer in Falsehoods:
He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!
And when he learns something of Our Signs, he takes them in jest: for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.
In front of them is Hell: and of no profit to them is anything they may have earned, nor any protectors they may have taken to themselves besides Allah: for them is a tremendous Penalty.
This is (true) Guidance and for those who reject the Signs of their Lord, is a grievous Penalty of abomination. 45:02-11
As to hadith and sunnah being a source of law for Islam and for Muslims:
“Shall I seek other than God as a source of law and judgment when He is the One who has sent down the Book to you in detail?”. 6:114
Alhamdullilah. All glory and praise is due to Allaah.
Assalamualaikum Brother dewaratugedeanom
Re,
dewaratugedeanom Says:
January 11th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
In awe and silence I have been watching this topic unfold without interfering but I’m beginning to wonder if Mr. Dawud Farquhar – I remember he also posted a couple of comments in earlier threads – isn’t in fact a munafiq, a Christian who adopted the Islamic practice of ‘taqiyyah’ in order to defame and ridicule the faith he pretends to defend. Otherwise I fail to comprehend how a person with an apparent education could seriously believe the nonsense he is promulgating.
Unless of course he has other problems.
This Dawud Farquhar is a Jew. There is no way a True Muslim would subscribe to an Israel ISP. They hate each other’s guts. As a wolf in a sheep’s skin, he echoed the same tune as all True Islamists – That the quran and hadiths cannot and should not be reformed; yet he was caught rejecting the authentic hadiths’ claims that Aisha age is 6, and opted for 14 – a munafik’s version. This man can’t make up his mind. He had not explained his careless goof as yet.
When he was caught out, instead of responding to my queries, he was on the defensive accusing me as Islamophobe.
Brother dewaratugedeanom, as you know, Allah swt had predicted this conversation taking place 50,000 years before the Big Bang. The enemies of Islam comes in all shapes, sizes and forms. To him, I said ‘Good Try’ but insyallah, our deen remains strong.
Wasalam.
_________________________
Ass. Mas Khimad Abdul Shomad and all brothers.
Thank you for your opinion.
I hope that Dawud Farquhar, whoever he is, enter into proper discussion with local Muslims and learn from us. The 2 largest Islamic organisations, Nahdatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, are best examples there is for the world’s ummah at large. We are neither ‘moderate’ nor ‘extreme’, we call ourselves DEVOUTED Muslims. No quranic verse nor sunnah had been re-interpreted. We simply opt out verses and sunnah that calls for killing of apostate, forced child marriages, destruction of anything unIslamic, Jews are enemies, name changed to Arab’s, sholat in Arabic, etc, etc. Anything that will cause us to change our heritage identity, we disregard them. NOT REJECT THEM.
Dawud Farquhar, with no apparent reason, posted many links lambasting Christians for deframing Islam. I was wondering why he did that when discussing Islam with fellow Muslim brothers. I may be wrong, but I have a gut feeling Dawud is a fanatical Jew trying to create tension between Christians and Muslims, which will benefit his Zionist agenda.
Wasalam.
-dewaratugedeanom, ‘taqiyyah’ is a shi’ite concept of intentionally with holding information that would give away their creed and their loyalty. I don’t need you to accept anything that I say, but I will certainly not allow anyone to get away with, is lying upon Islam.
Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> There is no way a True Muslim would subscribe to an Israel ISP
walla.com is a freebie site like any other site. If the depth of your intelligence goes as far as ascribing a religion to someone who used a freebie email site, then you are more pathetic than I’ve given you credit for, lol. Going on this basis, who do you think holds major interests in mainstream freebie email sites? In fact it has become an unfortunate reality that Zionist monopoly over popular culture (inc. internet) is not as uncommon as you might like to think.
Instead of making childish remarks, do this board a favour and post something of substance, or are you too ignorant to do that? Last time I laid out some information about Islam and culture in the context of. S.E. Asia and how Islamic revivalism is becoming an inherent part of Muslim identity against the plaots and plans of non-Muslims who would rather keep the Muslims under the veil of ignorance and continue in instilling alien and heretical ideas (the likes of which khafir promotes in apparent opposition to orthodox/mainstream Islam).
My question is how hard will you try to keep Muslims in Java in the status quo and how hard you will fight puritan revivalism that will eventually affect you and those you know there? Kejawenism teaches you tolerance doesn’t it (or the lack of from what I see in your posts), so how will you reconcile that with the evolving social change within Javanese society?
_______________________________
Aluang kejawein writes:
The enemies of Islam comes in all shapes, sizes and forms.
None more so detrimental than you and your anti-Muslim bigots on this board. Islamophobia may be a modern phenomenon, but it seems that your likes have long harboured hate against everything mainstream Islam.
enter into proper discussion with local Muslims and learn from us.
Proper discussion? The mean one where I actually get answers from you and your ilk? Firstly, you are not a Muslim and you have made this very apparent from your words, secondly by running around and seeking the support of your like-minded individuals is a bad show of desperation on your part (especially when those people are equally non-Muslim and ignorant as you are). Discussions are based on knowledge and evidences and referential integrity. You have none of that, with all due respect.
Even the manners of discussion are absent. The normal format for discussions is as follows: X asks a question, Z answers the question – X raised a point, Z responds to that point. Then the information is left for the general public to read and to make up their own minds and draw conclusions from the discussion. If you were to follow khafir’s example, he cuts and pastes irrelevant information from jewish sites like submission.org and he expects me to reply to the plethora of mistakes and lies he purports. This is not the way to conduct any beneficial discussions.
The 2 largest Islamic organisations, Nahdatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, are best examples there is for the world’s ummah at large.
Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah because of its founding ideals and its traditionalist ooutlook. I would not say they are ‘best examples’, but they are ok in the context of Indonesian geo-social politics. No Muslim organisation outside of Indonesia would want to imitate these organisations as they are conditioned to their own culture. They represent the complex diversity of Indonesian cultures rather than Islam as per say. And I also bet that they don’t hold khafir’s view on the authority of the Sunnah, lol.
Did anybody on this site actually bother to follow the link Deadwood gave in one of his earlier postings? It is similar in style to a conspiracy theory, or UFO site:
The site said:
The biggest muslim gathering in the world, more than 180 million Muslims of which 80% of are Muslims. This country is very poor, for example one Saudi Riyal is 2000 Rupees there, they are ready to accept anything, if Muslims intend to spread Islam it would be a great land for it. I saw that with my eyes when i visited it and i told my companions that Indonesia is for those who come first.
Firstly Deadwood, if you believe this sort of nonsense I feel sorry for you, you are sorely deluded as are your masters.
Indonesia may be a poor country by the standards of your saudi masters, but it is rich with a spirit of brotherhood that you can barely imagine, we may have our disagreements, but unless the people are being manipulated by outsiders we generally manage to deal with things peacefully. Indonesia is also rich with a cultural heritage that your saudi masters could only dream about, maybe only dream about destroying if the truth is known
Let me tell you now unequivocally, that will never happen!
We may not have lots of money, but we are happy with the bounty which Allah has blessed us with, be we Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu.
You and your saudi petrodollars, may be able to buy off our corrupt politicians and religious leaders but you will never buy off The Heart and Soul of this Nation.
Some more of the blatant nonsense from Deadwoods link follows:
The number of foreign missionaries 27,324!! almost 30 thousands missionary and that doesn’t include the Indonesian missionaries!!!! on the other hand the number of muslim preachers are less than 80!..
…the budget for missionaries in Indonesia is 100 million dollars per year!!!! their methods are many: reaching power positions, educational institutions, publications! Also there are empty Islands where the government moves some Muslims and some pagans there so the missionaries hurry to build there and meet these people as they come and convert them! many Muslims were converted this way…..
…..There are also several air line companies that dedicate all their revenue to the missionary effort as mentioned the the magazine Al-Yamamah, issue 1410….
……There is also an Island called Samarang which has the High Institution For Missionary which was able to convert 6000 muslim students in 9 years who became missionaries too. There is also another area called Riyam, this area is uncivilized and the people there still live in primitive life style. There is a great effort to convert these people even by seducing them by European girls who live among them … there are some muslim efforts but they do not compare to the Christian efforts…….
Just goes to prove that if you believe sunnah and hadith you will believe anything!
@ Dawud Farquhar
Proper discussion? The mean one where I actually get answers from you and your ilk? Firstly, you are not a Muslim and you have made this very apparent from your words, secondly by running around and seeking the support of your like-minded individuals is a bad show of desperation on your part (especially when those people are equally non-Muslim and ignorant as you are). Discussions are based on knowledge and evidences and referential integrity. You have none of that, with all due respect.
All your so called Indonesian ‘non-muslims’ can proudly tell your their heritage identity. That makes us over 100 millions strong ‘non-muslims’. Take your dirty Jews vs. Muslims conflict back to the ME. No wonder Ahmadinejad wanted to wipe off Israel.
Trying to discuss Islam with Indonesian Muslims without revealing your ethnic identity, that is laughable. You’re craftily avoiding this statement:
“I may be wrong, but I have a gut feeling Dawud is a fanatical Jew trying to create tension between Christians and Muslims, which will benefit his Zionist agenda.”
p.s In one posting you are saying other posters are my multiple identities. In another, iamisaid is my sidekick. Then iamisaid is Mas Khafi. Now the rest of other posters are my ilks.
You have to make up your mind. I also wonder if you are fit for discussion. 🙂
Deadwood said:
Discussions are based on knowledge and evidences and referential integrity. You have none of that, with all due respect.
Neither do your sunnah and hadith, with all due respect!
Deadwood also said:
Even the manners of discussion are absent. The normal format for discussions is as follows: X asks a question, Z answers the question – X raised a point, Z responds to that point.
Just how many direct question asked have you been either able or willing to answer? How many points raised have you managed to avoid discussing?
He further said:
Then the information is left for the general public to read and to make up their own minds and draw conclusions from the discussion.
Well at least with this you are correct, and I don’t think you have done yourself or your cause any good at all. How many commentators have you had supporting your views? Let me tell you….. None!
Well at least now you can go and round up all your fellow deluisionists and try to get some favourable comments.
@ Mohammed Khafi
LOL .. I only read the links he gave about Aisha. I think I will start reading the rest of his joke pages.
Same old Singaporean cukong rantings. If Yusril Ihza Mahendra contacted you and offer you lucratic contracts, you will desert your own kind. Same as Harto murdered and raped your own kind, but if he is to offer you sweetener, you will be licking from his feet. Brown man don’t do that.
Yeah yeah, you and your big mouth. If he offers me like what your big mouth said as ‘lucratic contracts’ yes I won’t be interested, damn right you are. And damn right your are that I won’t even lick the feet of Harto whom you said raped your own Brown kind.
Throughout the postings I had made, you didn’t even seemed to understand or pick up something at all from there.
That I worked in Kebon Sirih area, that I worked at important installation that I could go in and out of high security area, that I worked with people from Trikora and Dwikora. You failed to come to a point of understanding that I used to work with the Soeharto’s family and that I quit due to personal reasons. I have seen more stars on shoulders than you have ever counted the starry sky and that place your IQ to a certain level where you can jump ten times and can’t even touch my balls.
People like you will definitely desert your own kind with what your so called Jovo cultural which you didn’t posses.
My personal guard used to be a Bridjen.
Aluang kejaweni, you are becoming boring man. I asked you a simple question at the end of my last post and you wastefully spend your time in unrelenting slander.
>> That makes us over 100 millions strong ‘non-muslims’.
Last time I checked, Indonesia had a population of 235 million of which 85% are Muslim (and of which 90% are Sunni).
>> Take your dirty Jews vs. Muslims conflict back to the ME.
Conflict? The first person to mention the conflict was your dopple ganger iamisaid and you were the first to bring Jews onto this board. Your hypocricy and double-standards here must be a reflection of your deprived upbringing.
>> Trying to discuss Islam with Indonesian Muslims without revealing your ethnic identity, that is laughable.
Islam has no ethnicity and its a no-brainer really, lol. As I explained earlier because of this misnomer of mixing religion with ethnicity and culture, Muslims in S.E. Asia have limited their da’wah to a narrow audience. I have a dear friend in KL who teaches at the IIU in KL and if of Chinese origin. He became Muslim and was shunned by his family initially because they thought that he wanted to become a Malay, to look like them and dress like them etc. They actually thought that a Chinese could not become Muslim because that would mean chancing ethnicity and culture of somesort. It had me in stitches and I had to write about the whole concept of religion and ethnicity in Malaysia. My paper has not yet been published, but you’ll hear about it when I do.
p.s. It is knowledge and action coupled with piety that distinguishes one Muslim from another, not ethnicity: “…The most honorable of you in the sight of Allaah is the most advanced of you in Taqwa (piety).” (trans of surah Hujurat: 13)
>> You’re craftily avoiding this statement:
I have not avoided the statement, I simply have no time to waste on entertaining rabid and unfounded remarks. I will pick out some of the comments that have some relevance to the topic if this board and build upon that. It is unfortunate that you cannot give a befitting reply to either my questions or my obserrvations. After all, we are going to be neighbours soon (well 6 months of the year anyhow :^)
________________________
Khafir writes:
>> Just how many direct question asked have you been either able or willing to answer?
khafir, you have lost your chance for any civil discussion because all you do is cut and paste irrelevant information from jewish sites like submission.org and expect me to reply to the plethora of mistakes and lies you purport. This is not the way to conduct any beneficial discussions.
You reject the Sunnah so therefore you naturally do not accept the mainstream Islam that NU or Muhammadiyah represent (if you are Indonesian) and your contradictions have already been pointed out to you. You do not know usoolul Hadeeth and you are not willing to read or hear the established mainstream facts about your heretical kufr ideas of rejection. You support the very people who disparage the honour of the Messenger (S) and with the same tongue you try to portray yourself as a Muslim.
Behind submission.org and every other vile site that rejects the Risaalah and the Seerah are none other than the jews that you accuse me of being, lol. Throughout history, it is mainly the jews who have been behind every attempt to bring down the role and the honour of the Messenger (S) and there can be no further indignity than trying to reject or reduce the role of the best of mankind! So for this reason, you are not worth discussing anything with at the moment because you are intellectually challenged and theologically bankrupt.
Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah because of its founding ideals and its traditionalist ooutlook. I would not say they are ‘best examples’, but they are ok in the context of Indonesian geo-social politics
This exactly shows how little you know about Indonesian Islam. NU is much closer to kejawen and traditional Indonesian heiritage. They are called “traditionalist” because they accept certain “adat” and pre-islamic customs.
Muhammediyah on the other hand strives for a more pure Islam, without influences of Javanese culture. Because this concept was “new” compared to mixing culture.. they are considered “modernists”
It is funny to see how you pick sides with NU, simply because you read the word “traditional” while in fact your ideas are so much closer to Muhammediyah. It also shows you don’t know anything about Islam in Indonesia. So you might want to read some books or articles about this before you give your opinion.
Oh and before you give a lame comment like: “you are no muslim, so you can’t comment on Islam”…. you already showed a lot of articles about “evil christian missionaries”, so I could also say: “You are no Christian, so you can’t comment on Christianity”
@ Dawud Farquhar
A lesson or two about Bhenika Tunggal Ika.
In Indonesia, ‘Brotherhood by ethnicity’ comes first before ‘Brotherhood by religion’. Conflicts in the nusantara were usually along ethnic line. A Javanese Muslim would not harm a Javanese Christian. A Hindu Balinese would not fight with their Christian or Muslim brothers. Ethnic Dayaks whether Muslim or Christian or animist band together against the predominantly Madurese during the Kali conflict. Whenever there are conflict, you find the same ethnicity grouping together. When a loud-mouthed Wahabi creep or Jew instigator comes to our turf telling us what to do, we Brown brothers unite together against a common foe. Understood?
Calling you a Jew instigator is not unfounded. You conveniently forget about the Poso Christians vs. Muslims conflict link you gave urging Muslims to take arm against Christians. Muslim Brown men against Christian Brown men, Muslim Bugis against Christian Bugis, you are out of your mind! Sulawesi is a Bugis area. Jusuf Kalla will be keeping track of you. 🙂
_______________________________
@ Dawud Farquhar
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm
http://muslim-responses.com/Marriage_with_Aisha/Marriage_with_Aisha_
http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/aisha_bint_abu_bakr.htm
In the late 100AD, a man in China killed a magistrate for molesting a little girl. In ancient India empires, there was no record of wide-spread child molesting. In the Malay world pre-Islamic period, it was zilch. All Asian have high moral values.
The links you gave are typical anti-Islamic bull craps trying to explain it was a normal practise worldwide in the 7th century; and that our prophet was merely following traditinal norm of the time. Prophet Mohammad pbuh was sent by Allah swt to show mankind ‘the way of life’ and for all future generations to come; OR was he not?
In Indonesia, we accepted Aisha’s age at 6 according to the authentic sunnah. There is NO NEED to fabricate lies that Aisha was 14. You make it as though Indonesian Muslims are ashamed. NO, we are NOT. Whether it was blessed by Allah swt or not, he will be judged by Allah swt alone. Your conspiracy to discredit Islam is exposed! You are not fit to discuss Islam with us.
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Re
Nahdatul Ulama are closer to Islamic principles than Muhammadiyah because of its founding ideals and its traditionalist ooutlook. I would not say they are ‘best examples’, but they are ok in the context of Indonesian geo-social politics
LOL I see Dawud retracting his statement soon. Probably he sided with NU because he must have mistaken Muhammadiyah for Ahmadiyah. Many NU Muslims have family members of other faiths living under the same roof. They don’t necessarily have to fast on ramadhan; they oppose death for apostasy; it was also the NU muslims that protest against destruction of Prambanan and Borobudur. More goofs on the way.
Deadwood said:
Me:….Just how many direct question asked have you been either able or willing to answer?
Deadwood….
khafir, you have lost your chance for any civil discussion because all you do is cut and paste irrelevant information from jewish sites like submission.org and expect me to reply to the plethora of mistakes and lies you purport. This is not the way to conduct any beneficial discussions.
Right from the very start, Deadwood has refused to answer any of the questions which I posed to him, this is a simple matter for anybody to check from this thread. This latest statement from him is simply trying to blind people from that fact.
Deadwood further said:
your contradictions have already been pointed out to you.
Once again Deadwood is trying to blind people to the truth, which is that the ncontradictions in his beleif were pointed out to him and he could not answer them. The plain fact are for all to see through this thread.
Deadwood continued:
You support the very people who disparage the honour of the Messenger (S) and with the same tongue you try to portray yourself as a Muslim.
The Prophet is actually disparaged by your sunnah and hadith, which suggest that he was a paedophile, psycopath, woman hater! The ammunition that the haters of Islam use is from his very own sunnah and hadith! I will remind him that being Muslim is about submission to Allah as conveyed to us in Torah, Zabur, Injeel and Al Quran, not to some fabricated fanciful stories made up 200 years after The Prophet died!
Once again:
Behind submission.org and every other vile site that rejects the Risaalah and the Seerah are none other than the jews that you accuse me of being, lol. Throughout history, it is mainly the jews who have been behind every attempt to bring down the role and the honour of the Messenger (S) and there can be no further indignity than trying to reject or reduce the role of the best of mankind!
In this rant Deadwood sounds like a consiracy theorist, blaming the Jews for all the ills that are befalling Islam (a favourite pastime of the mohammedans, who never consider that they are responsible for their own fate), he conveniently forget the difference which he himself pointed out between Zionists and Jews in his dementia. I will repeat that it is in fact his sunnah and hadith which the denigrators of The Prophet use as ammunition for their cause.
Deadwood will not answer these questions because he has no answers:
Why does he follow sunnah and hadith? When Allah says in Al Quran, “Who shall I take as a source of Law other than Allah, when it is He who has sent down this book complete and fully detailed”….” In what hadith will they believe, now that I have given them this book, fully detailed”
Why does he say that Al Quran superceedes all other revelation, when Allah himself says that it is a confirmation and an explanation of what came before?
khafir, looks like you’re lost in translation once again… Let’s make it easier for your pea-brain to understand… Your fringe looney cult is like the qadyanis, no matter how much you protest that you are ‘Muslim’, Islam will simply not recognise you. This is what happens when your cult rejects the foundations upon which Islam is built. Previously
I know that I.M does not have a large readership, but we must make sure that they do not get corrupted by alien ideas of the anti-sunnah (and therefore anti-Islam) freaks like you. You can put out all the lies you can muster and I will post all the information from mainstream orthodox Islam, and we will leave it for the readers of this board to decide for themselves.
The Qur’an is the basis of Islam, all of its parables, rules and regulations and commands came through the Messenger (S) and it was the Messenger (S) who orally and physicall put these rules and regulations and commands into action so that Muslims could see how the Qur’an is to be understood and how it needs to be applied in our lives and society.
Previously you glossed over the issue of shurah (consultation) and how you said that the Messenger (S) used to do shurah, yet because you reject his sunnah, I asked ‘how’ do you know he used to do it and how do you know the methods he used to implement it. You then quoted a (translated) ayah on shurah and you failed to impress how this ayah is to be understood and applied in our lives.
On this single issue of shurah (from million other examples), the Qur’an laid out the general rule of its validity and its recommendation. However ‘how’ this concept is to the applied and in what circumstances and the wisdom behind it was portrayed through the seerah of the Messenger (S). And because your anti-Islam cult rejects sunnah, you are left stabbing in the dark to grasp the ideals of shurah. You leave it to your own limited and ignorant devices to make up your own religion as you go along, in total contract to the commands on the Qur’an to follow the Messenger (S).
Not content with addressing me as Kafir, Deadwood (I will not use his real name as I consider it most inappropriate) has now stooped to personal insults, telling me that I am ‘intellectually challenged and theologically bankrupt’.
I don’t think in any of my comments have I every personally insulted him, I certainly asked the question that possibly he may be a Zionist Infiltrator, but never directly or indirectly called him that.
This is unfortunately another example of ‘The Mohammedan Religion’ in action.
No real Muslim would stoop to insulting somebody who is trying to engage them in rational debate, neither would they use it as an excuse to avoid such debate.
Teng writes:
>> NU is much closer to kejawen and traditional Indonesian heiritage. They are called “traditionalist” because they accept certain “adat” and pre-islamic customs.
Why don’t you people read properly… In the post, I was refering to it’s “founding ideals” – Hasyim Asy’ari had some good ideas that were simply ignored by his successors. As for its “traditionalist outlook”, NU is (or tries to portray itself) a conservative Sunni organisation subtley opposing the ‘liberal’ and ‘free-thinking’ nonesense that some elements of M’yah purport.
At the end of the day Indonesia does not have much choice when it comes to religious organisations that represent them and some people are torn between ‘worse’ or ‘palatable’. Evidence points to elements of revivalism even within these organisations (because they are not monolithic entities) and working with them to support an auste revivalism is in the interest of unadulterated Islam.
Indonesia inherited a state from the Dutch where the ‘independence project’ introduced a secular concept of nationhood. This did not provoke an anti-secularist surgence because the establishment (of a multi-party political system) incorporated an Islamic element in politics. This I believe, resulted in the institutionalisation of a “Indonesian-Islamic synthesis” culture within the state. So any state-sanctioned organisations would have to conform with the establishment and not oppose it generally speaking.
The current wave of Islamic revivalism cannot be seen as a traditionalist desire to return to a “golden age”, nor can it be seen as a “fundamentalist” rejection of modernity. What we will witness in today’s Indonesia is a religiously inspired nationalism which is not homogeneous and where there is no unified interests. The pro-Islamic parties articulate a difference (and often contradictory interests) and incorporates them into a nationalist popular program.
With the work of tasfiyah wa tarbiyah slowly gaining momentum, the affect of kebatinan may not remain deep-rooted forever… With access to knowledge becoming easy and with classical works being translated and taugh in Indonesia, it will be a slow bure sure path to Islamic progression in the real sense of orthodoxy…
Why don’t you people read properly”¦ In the post, I was refering to it’s “founding ideals” – Hasyim Asy’ari had some good ideas that were simply ignored by his successors. As for its “traditionalist outlook”, NU is (or tries to portray itself) a conservative Sunni organisation subtley opposing the ‘liberal’ and ‘free-thinking’ nonesense that some elements of M’yah purport.
You clearly said NU ARE…. present tense… not just the founding ideals.
Calling Muhammediyah more liberal than NU is just plain wrong considering its M’yah who wants to purge Indonesian islam of the kejawen customs you so much hate. Once again (because you clearly did not read my post) Muhammediyah is called MODERN because they want to go back to a pure islam, compared to TRADITIONAL NU who wants to keep the things nice and cozy just the way they are now. An example is tahlilan, Massive prayer for deceased people, which is considered haram by Muhammediyah because it doesn’t have islamic roots but widely practised by NU followers
khafir writes:
>> Not content with addressing me as Kafir,
Are you blind? Since when does khafir become kafir? This actually sums up your blind ego and your ignorance.
>> has now stooped to personal insults,
Personal insults? This is not personal at all because when a non-Muslim tries to pollute pure Islam under the guise of being a Muslim, this is not personal but rather it involves the whole religion and over 1 billion Sunni Muslims. I don’t care if people insult me, but when they insult Islam, no Muslim will tolerate this. Do you understand the difference?
>> …telling me that I am ‘intellectually challenged and theologically bankrupt’.
Calling a spade a spade is not wrong. Calling you ‘intellectually challenged’ is based on having gone through your cringing posts and your inability to even discuss the basic fundamentals of Islamic legislation and sources. Calling you ‘theologically bankrupt’ is based on proof of your lack of Arabic and your aloofness from classical texts and history and tafseer. Your docrinal grasp of Islam is woeful and your attempts to rebut established Islamic creed and common Islamic orthodoxy is laughable.
>> I don’t think in any of my comments have I every personally insulted him,
You have insulted the content of the Qur’an, you have insulted the Messenger (S) and thus you have insulted Islam. Your insults go beyond personal (which I don’t really care about). It is your insults directed against the message of the Qur’an and the dignity of the Messenger (S) that would get you in a lot of trouble in other Muslim countries.
When fringe looney cults like yours reject the sunnah (that establishes the comprehensiveness of faith and actions) you are already outside the fold of Islam. You cannot have it both way; on one hand accepting the Qur’an as your primary source of guidance and on the other rejecting all passages that refer to the obligation of following the Messenger (S) – This is the bankruptcy and the challenge that I speak of.
You have done nothing here except cut and paste from the jewish submission.org site and repeat the age-old lies that re-run like a broken record. anti-hadeeth infidels are spawns of ghulam perveiz just as the ahmadiyah are spawns of ghulam qadiyan. you may not know who they are, but their cult teachings are firmly inscribed in your hearts. The first person ever to question the validity of the sunnah was a jew in the 14th century. Such was the hatred of the last Messenger (S) that his attempt to brainwash some sections of Muslims found fertile ground in South Asia and trickled into S.E. Asia with the traders that brought Islam there.
You may not know, but rejectors like you are called “Submitters” here in the West. And your cult is drowing in the abyss of its own making:
http://www.islamlife.com/down/if-you-love-allah.pdf
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Teng writes:
>> You clearly said NU ARE”¦. present tense”¦ not just the founding ideals.
Yes, I was speaking in general terms because I thought being Indonesian, you would know that neither of them are monolithic and their followers are not exactly what you call unified in their national interests. They articulate differences and work towards their agendas. Becuase M’yah understand the socio-religious importance that their movement promotes, NU on the other hand needs to delve in this area and there is a slow shift towards engagement with M’yahs. It is this engagement and open sense of brotherhood that will open up possibilties for ta’awan (working together) for a greater purpose.
>> “¦its M’yah who wants to purge Indonesian islam of the kejawen customs you so much hate.
‘so much hate’? I have never said such a thing. What I did explain is that those customs that do not go against Islamic principles are accepted as cultural norms and its those pagan and panthiest ideas that are rejected. Kejawen is like any other culture that will have elements that are endorsed by religion or rejected. We embrace the commonality of social values and ‘humanism’ with the above condition attached.
>> Muhammediyah is called MODERN because they want to go back to a pure islam, compared to TRADITIONAL NU who wants to keep the things nice and cozy just the way they are now.
You bring a good point Teng; Tahlilan has been at some time or another, a point f discussion in every place. Here is London, Islamchannel.tv has regular Q&A sessions when people ring in and ask questions. This question has been answered a hundred time a dozen different people representing different madhabs and schools of thought; the differences in their answers (some backed up with hard evidence and others with somuchso) does not lead to animosity or is not as a big an issue that could divide or define individual agendas.
I can tell you for a fact that such discussions and differences occur within these organisations themselves. There are members of NU who disagree with the leadership’s stand on many issues, including tahlilan for example? NU (I personally believe) are better placed to lead a revival because its members are playing theological catch-up with M’yah and the more education and interaction they have, the more influence they will have on the rural folk (the urban Muslims do not have many of their disadvanctages) who make up bulk of Muslims in Indonesia and whom NU represents.
@ Dawud Farquhar
Same rants, nothing new, still avoiding pertinent questions and still ashamed of your ethnicity.
You said you will be my neighbour which I gather you will be visiting soon. I am from kalimantan. The Dayaks should be your top priority to seek a sweet vendetta as they purged the area of Muslims several years ago. It is the best place to get the Christians and Muslims getting at each other’s throat. Wait, it was combination of Dayaks(Christians, Muslims and Animists) versus Madurese (Muslims). Your Zionist agenda won’t work there. Not in Kalimantan, not in Java. 🙂
@ Lairedion
I do not wish this creep to disappear too soon. Maybe after a few more weeks when he started to bore me, I will then stop responding. At the moment, it is entertaining to read his garbage every now and then.
What he fails to understand is while the NU may be representing a conservative form of Sunni Indonesian Islam they are also committed to the unitary state of Indonesia, democracy, the Pancasila and are promoting Moderation as the Pillar of a Peaceful and Harmonious Multi-Cultural and Multi-Faith Society: …
EXACTLY what I have said but in a more detailed form:
“The 2 largest Islamic organisations, Nahdatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah, are best examples there is for the world’s ummah at large. We are neither ‘moderate’ nor ‘extreme’, we call ourselves DEVOUTED Muslims. No quranic verse nor sunnah had been re-interpreted. We simply opt out verses and sunnah that calls for killing of apostate, forced child marriages, destruction of anything unIslamic, Jews are enemies, name changed to Arab’s, sholat in Arabic, etc, etc. Anything that will cause us to change our heritage identity, we disregard them. NOT REJECT THEM.”
I wrote:
That makes us over 100 millions strong ‘non-muslims’.Dawud wrote:
Last time I checked, Indonesia had a population of 235 million of which 85% are Muslim (and of which 90% are Sunni).
I am talking to someone who had not a clue about Islam in Indonesia, much less the kinship bond between ethnic group. Over half of registered Muslims are Muslim by Default.
I still think he is a Zinonist with sinister intent. What he is encouraging is that Muslims versus Christians war. Zionist survives if Christians and Muslims are busy at war; because Muslims will then be too busy to bother them.
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Dear iamisaid,
There is no need to apologize and I will try to answer your question and tell you how I feel about this.
Participating in discussions is a great thing to do. It is good to learn from other peoples thinkings and trying to understand their world view and also expressing yours. At the same time it is none of my business to interfere in other peoples life and I expect the same tolerance back.
I only subscribed to this blog a couple of days ago although I have been visiting IM for almost a year now. IM is obviously appealing to me having strong links with Indonesia. I’m half Indonesian, was brought up with some mixed Western-Indo culture, still have many Indonesian relatives scattered around the archipelago, lived and worked in Indonesia for three years, my wife is full Indonesian and my daughter is in the process of obtaining Indonesian nationality next to her Dutch. Although I fully agree anyone with an interest to Indonesia can subscribe and participate here. Which brings me to the adversary of iamisaid.
My opinion is that he is the only one who should apologize. By dodging various questions and not being interested in the mindset of many Indonesians (especially Mas Khafi and Mas Aluang) Indonesia itself and not willing to accept that there is such a thing as Indonesian Islam, he let this discussion ran out of control. I must admit I made a few offensive remarks myself in the heat of the moment but he is an Islamist who has the duty to convert or slaughter an infidel like me in stead of accepting me as the agnostic theist I am. Constantly calling Mas Khafi a khafir was as low as it could get and was the most disturbing I’ve experienced in this particular discussion.
My advise to Mr. Dawud Farquhar. If you’re not interested in Indonesia, its culture, its people and anything else be fair to yourself and stay away from IM.
I’ll say no more.