Learning Islam
Aug 7th, 2007, in News, by PatungIndonesian Muslims still have some way to go in learning Islam.
The minister of religion, Maftuh Basyuni said on 4th August that Islam did not teach violence or radicalism, and radicalism could not be allowed to flourish Indonesia because most people were opposed to it and it had no basis in the Quran. He advised people to not only read the Quran a lot but to learn it and understand it.
Maftuh Basyuni, jealous obsession.
Muslims must also give room for people of other religions, he said, because in the Quran it was written: “for you your religion, for me my religion”.
He was speaking in Ciawi, West Java, after laying the foundation stone for a printing press building that will be the first centre of Quran printing production in Indonesia, costing 26 billion rupiah to build and expected to produce about one million copies by the end of 2007.
My obsession is that within two years it will be printing five million copies a year.
He admitted to being jealous that Indonesia was the biggest centre of Bible production in south-east Asia, and hoped that the press could produce cheap, pocked-sized Qurans so that people could learn Islam anywhere. antara
Meanwhile in Jakarta former president Megawati Soekarnoputri, not ordinarily known as an authority on religion, spoke on a similar theme after appointing the first office-bearers of the PDI-P’s new Muslim political wing Baitul Muslimin Indonesia (Bamusi, BMI).
Megawati Soekarnoputri, there’s more to life than shopping.
She said it was peculiar now that Indonesia had entered an era of democracy and respect of human rights that some people went about committing violence in the name of Islam. The founding fathers in 1945 knew that sectarian conflicts were dangerous because they weakened the country and allowed colonialists a foot in the door. The violence that had occurred in Central Sulawesi, the Moluccas, and West Kalimantan should serve as motivation for Indonesian Muslims to learn what Islam was really about, she said. mediaindo
306 Comments on “Learning Islam”
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iamisaid says:
“Ecce Homo” (Behold the Man) – Dawud Farquhar
A self confessed arm chair Internet geek, who champions the cause of Islam and believes that God “safeguards Islam through the efforts of individuals when needed “¦..”
http://strangersoasis.com/2007/10/30/refutation-pledge-of-mutual-cooperation/He takes personal pride in his knowledge of Islam and makes it boasts about it. What is important in his crusade is, “I before God” as he titles one of his posts as “My Best Refutation”
http://strangersoasis.com/2007/11/06/my-best-refutation-ever/The millennium messenger of God who, “Over the past few years, I’ve spent disproportionate amounts of time debating online in internet forums and mailing lists, arguing this and that, and I’m pretty sure most of it was time wasted.”
http://strangersoasis.com/2007/11/06/my-best-refutation-ever/And who supports social mayhem when he proudly said, “it is the right of every Muslim to judge and punish those who lie and fabricate and slander”
http://www.thejakartapost.com/yesterdaydetail.asp?fileid=20071103.F07A person who vacillates with his personal avowal when he admits, “I had resolved before Ramadan to refrain from petty internet argumentation, and just as I was writing the response, a hadeeth came to mind and pulled me away from that idea and reminded me of my resolution.”
http://strangersoasis.com/2007/11/06/my-best-refutation-ever/And thinks he knows just about anything else even about a Statesman whom he has probably not even met, “when he said, “LKY has been senile for a long time now and needs such outbursts to keep him noticed and ‘relevant’. His logic can equally be applied to the marginalisation of the Malay community within Singapore and how the PAP has played a fine game of social engineering to maintain a cosmetic harmony.”
http://www.littlespeck.com/informed/2006/CInformed-060923.htm_______________________________
Aluang A. Bayang,
You said:
iamisaid reply:
A Muslim, I am not. Aluang A. Bayang, that I am not too. I go by my pen name iamisaid at this Blog.Let’s tell it like it is. Of course we aren’t the same person. tomaculum, iamisaid and Sputjam shared the same keyboard, and take turns to type at a Jakarta internet cafe.
I wanted to set something clear at the outset and I hope this explains why I did it.
In stating “Aluang A. Bayang I am not too”. was a direct reference to Dawud’s remark at one of his many posts wherein he mentioned that you, Aluang A. Bayang and I were the same person.
Going through all his gibberish posts to quote you that accusation would be wasting my time.
Peace Mas,
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dawud farquhar says:
iamisaid. Unlike you I do have a life outside this thread you know. :^) Instead of drooling your ignorance here, why don’t you become pro-active and put your ‘positive’ ideas about making your society better at on the ground level. Wherever you live, you can go down to the grass-roots and make a difference. Its clear you and Aluang don’t have the gift of knowledge but at least put your time and strength to better use.
Looks like you really do have a lot of spare time on your hand, and as they say… “Idle hands make…”
>> Is the Internet links your benchmark?
Nope, but since Aluang Kejaweni gets most of his nonesense from the internet, it is the same internet that also rectifies his mistakes. If he has the decency to make silly accusations he finds on the net, he should be man enough to read the other side of the story. And since he keeps asking for the same question to be answered, I and many of my colleagues have answered his childish remarks therein, simple really :^)
>> I am a born Catholic who lives with an open mind,
Eveyone needs an open mind to be sincere enough to accept the truth when it comes to them. If your mind is open and you have a thirst for theological points, you might find this exciting: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html
tomaculum Says:
>> Dawud, what is Kejaweni? Do you know it really?
Kejaweni (apart from the adaptation of cultural aspects into a codified religion), morphs and blends this religion into something unrecognisable by traditional standards. Hence it is not uncommon to find people who claim to be Muslims yet have no issues with going against fundamental teachings like Tahweeh/monothiesm by becoming involved in pagan acts and customs.
>> Maybe you should say: I believe in my Islam.
Not really, if you read my above posts I have explained from the Islamic sources how Islam is not someone’s personal domain. It is not an object of desire that you can twist and turn however you want. Islam is one, but falsehoods are many and Indonesia remains on the top 5 list of countries that needs a large-scale Islamic educational revolution. Signs of improvements can be seen throught Java especially and maybe this is what Aluang is intolerant of. He would rather keep the naive unweary amongst the populas in the darkness of anti-Islamic rituals and beliefs and hope that Islamic orthodoxy does not take a deeper root in the country.
If Malaysia is anything to go by as an example, Indonesia will hopefully follow suit in Islamic revival and awakening ‘inshaa Allaah.
Sputjam Says:
>> The people who are most unjust presently, happens to be followers of the religion of islam.
The problems with Muslims today is common knowledge, they had been prophesised by our Prophet and the reasons and the causes as well as the solutions are all given and are there. All you need to do is learn and you shall find. You achieve nothing by wagging your keyboard and paying lip service to improving the sorry state of affairs within Muslims lands. The question is how we can proactively revive the very message that gave us our gloden age (which will return only be returning back to Islam in its entirety).
It is also interesting how you people have suddenly come onto this board to support Aluang. Surely Aluang cannot be desperate enough to create and post under so many IDs? lol.
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Aluang Anak Bayang says:
@ dawud farquhar
Dawud, let’s get serious.
Do you have children?
Are you a Single White Male Balding in your late 50s, and a recent convert?
You couldn’t be serious with the 1st link you provided me?
How can you expect a person not to question your sanity re “sex with age 13 or 14 girl is okay” because your rationale “In fact even today we read of 12, 13 year old females having children.”? This is your very own words.
Just in case you log onto the wrong site. This is an Indonesia site. Indonesian belongs to one of the Great Asian Race. We don’t shag little girls. You are trying to tell us that it is okay under the guise of Islam.
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@ dawud farquhar
It is also interesting how you people have suddenly come onto this board to support Aluang. Surely Aluang cannot be desperate enough to create and post under so many IDs? lol.
You ought to check yourself into a psychiatric ward. You aren’t thinking clearly. To you, it is always conspiracy. Clearly they were here because they were sickened by the links you provided. If you have been around long enough, these people are Asians. Once again, Asians don’t shag little pre-teen girl for any religion.
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Mohammed Khafi says:
dawud farquhar said:
I have explained from the Islamic sources
The Islamic sources are Torah, Zabur, Injeel and Al Quran, and what Allah has revealed therein, you however, have only used Sunnah and Hadith, which were corrupted for over 200 years before collection and compilation.
Allah says:
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”Does Al Quran supercede these other scriptures as you stated in an earlier post, or not?
Allah says:
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;Islam is not the corrupted Hadith and Sunnah, it is simply submission to Allah. It is not the Deen of Prophet Mohammed, it is the Deen of Allah only, from the time of creation to the end of days.
It is your corrupted Hadith and Sunnah, which displaced Islam from its Golden Age, which stopped reasoning and questioning, and stifled the poor and uneducated people which it had been sent to free. We don’t want your filthy corrupt Arabic Islam in Indonesia.
Whilst I don’t necessarily agree with all my brothers and sisters on IM about what Islam is, we at least agree that we each have the freedom to decide ourselves, and be answerable for our own choices on The Day of Judgement.
Peace
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It is also interesting how you people have suddenly come onto this board to support Aluang. Surely Aluang cannot be desperate enough to create and post under so many IDs? lol.
The ONLY sensible thing Dawud Farquhar has said thus far.
Amin.
____________________
Whilst I don’t necessarily agree with all my brothers and sisters on IM about what Islam is, we at least agree that we each have the freedom to decide ourselves, and be answerable for our own choices on The Day of Judgement.
Peace
So speaketh the Minister of Religious Affairs, Republic of Komodo.
Clearly not a place for the likes of a religious wimp like Dawud Farquhar.
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To : Dawud Farquhar,
iamisaid. Unlike you I do have a life outside this thread you know :^) Instead of drooling your igorance here, why dont you become pro-active and put your ‘positive’ ideas about making your society better at on the ground level. Wherever you live, you can go down to the grass-roots and make a difference. Its clear you and Aluang don’t have the gift of knowledge but at least put your time and strength to better use.
Looks like you really do have a lot of spare time on your hand, and as they say”¦ “Idle hands make”¦”
>> Is the Internet links your benchmark?
Nope, but since Aluang Kejaweni gets most of his nonesense from the internet, it is the same internet that also rectifies his mistakes. If he has the decency to make silly accusations he finds on the net, he should be man enough to read the other side of the story. And since he keeps asking for the same question to be answered, I and many of my colleagues have answered his childish remarks therein, simple really :^)
>> I am a born Catholic who lives with an open mind,
Everyone needs an open mind to be sincere enough to accept the truth when it comes to them. If your mind is open and you have a thirst for theological points, you might find this exciting: http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html
That’s all you have to say?
What did you say? What have you been trying to say all this while anyways?
I have more time than you can ever imagine to stalk religious humbugs like you.
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@ Dawud
If Malaysia is anything to go by as an example, Indonesia will hopefully follow suit in Islamic revival and awakening ‘inshaa Allaah.
Dawud, you should broaden your horizon and learn about Singapore, Japan, Korea, China and India? If Malaysia is pitted against these countries in term of economic strength or religious tolerance, she is at the lower end of the scale.
However, to compare it with all Islamic countries, she is “Best of the worst”, I am afraid. 🙂 Tell me if I am wrong.
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If Malaysia is anything to go by as an example
Yeah, as a matter of fact, that is true when there are so many of your kind that live in Malaysia beyond the shadow of a doubt.
I am a Malaysian so don’t even think further. Unless you consider yourself to be more Malaysian.
Your mind is so sick. Get a life. Go f*ck a Komodo Dragon !!!
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Dawud Farquhar says:
Aluang Kejaweni writes:
>> The youtube link he gave was an incitement to murder. It shows decapilated bodies and pleading all Muslims to take arms and kill more innocent people
Not really, others would interpret it as an incitement to justice. Remember the aspects of jihad I explained earlier: http://www.islam101.com/dawah/jihad_explained.html
>> This man is a lunatic
Is this the level of your intellectual eloquence and ability? The problem with you is that you don’t read and understand so good. And a further proof of this is your response to my very first posting here (just browse up) You misunderstood everything I said because you were too busy jumping to conclusions. You are not here to learn but to dictate.
Your trouble is further highlighted by your are intolerant of Islam. You were happily going along perpetuating your lies and propogating your ideas that you though you would actually get away with it.
Real Islam is slowly but surely taking over the cultural pollution that has resulted in Indonesia and you don’t like it one bit.
You are more than welcome to your Kejaweni ideas and you can also criticise and spew hatred against Islam all you like, your disinformation will not go unchallenged.
>> you should broaden your horizon and learn about Singapore, Japan, Korea, China and India?
You assume too much mr Kejaweni, I have business interests in S. Korea and China and my wife is Singaporean. My conversion to Islam does not teach me to forsake humanity and sit on my prayer mat all day. The reason why I used Malaysia as an example for Indonesia is because of the close racial and cultural and historical ties. You really are beginning to waste my time here. If you won’t have anything substantive to say then don’t say anything at all.
I look forward to your next set of amusing assumptions and stereotypes sir. I must say that I have to attempt posting my messages more than once as I don’t think the board moderators like truths.
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iamisaid writes:
Your mind is so sick. Get a life. Go f*ck a Komodo Dragon !!!
From your abusive posts it clearly looks that you so-called Kejaweni tolerance is being tested like your side-kick Aluang :^) Come on, I know that Javenese are not as condensending as you.
Also to note is how link-minded ignobles on this board come to the defense of each other to promote their misnomers.
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What did you say?
The most dangerous madmen are those created by religion, and people whose aim is to disrupt society always know how to make good use of them on occasion.
Denis Diderot
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khafir writes –
>> Al Quran tells us it is complete perfect and fully detailed, yet Dawud Farquhar, still keeps supporting his arguments, with Sunnah and Hadith.
You know something khafi, I have discussed this issue to such a depth that if the so-called Quran’ites like you had been privy to those discussions and publications, you would have no resort except admit your weak arguments. You claim to be Muslim yet you reject the very essense of the Qur’an and Nabuwwa and Risaalah.
As for the authority of the Sunnah, then it must be understood that the role of the Prophet Muhammad (S) was not as a mere postman who, after delivering his letter, has no concern with it whatsoever:
http://www.islaam.com/Section.aspx?id=8
The Messenger was not sent just to deliver the Book of Allaah, but to explain it and demonstrate a practical example of its contents. (check 3:164) – This function of the Prophet (S) could not be carried out unless his guidance was held to be authoritative and binding upon his followers. Thus Allaah made obedience to His Messenger (S) an obligation upon mankind. (check 3:132, 24:54).
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Hear ye! Hear ye!
The hour is at hand.
For he is the One who speaks with wisdom and shall bring salvation to mankind.
The world is being redeemed by Dawud Farquhar.
Pretenders and liars all but let no man speak evil against Dawud Farquhar.
He is the Untouchable. He is the living Legend.Bring it on Dawud Farquhar.
Be not dismayed by the heretics and apostates for triumph is yours forever.
You shall outclass, outwit and in the end even outdo your own self.
For such is the glory and the power that belongs to Dawud Farquhar.So it is written.
So shall it be done. -
Lairedion says:
Wow some serious stuff going on over here…
I’m a regular visitor of IM and I took some extensive time to read the discussions on this weblog. It’s fun to read really, especially the usage of the English language here often makes me smile. My wife likes to tell me Indonesians are not great in foreign languages but she’s been proven wrong here. But first let me introduce myself:
I live in the Netherlands. My mother is Dutch and my father is Javanese/Manadonese with a Dutch twist somewhere. My wife is from Bandung and of Sundanese/Moluccan descent. I was born and raised Catholic but I happily abandoned the Holy Church of Rome and nowadays I consider myself agnostic. My wife had an Protestant upbringing. However her relatives are heavily Muslim, not so strange being Sundanese from her mother’s side. It seems rather arrogant for me to join discussions about Indonesia as I’m a Dutch citizen but I cannot deny the fact I’m partly Indonesian myself (my appearance is brown, not white).
The whole discussion about Islam and its interpretation with people like Dawud is going nowhere. I can only hope Indonesia won’t be overrun with such wahhabi idiots. I’m sick and tired of these people. Christians, Muslims and Jews are rapidly destroying our planet in their lust for power and war. The monotheistic religions and their followers have brought nothing but misery to our beautiful planet. Their next soldier is Dawud:
Not really, if you read my above posts I have explained from the Islamic sources how Islam is not someone’s personal domain. It is not an object of desire that you can twist and turn however you want. Islam is one, but falsehoods are many and Indonesia remains on the top 5 list of countries that needs a large-scale Islamic educational revolution. Signs of improvements can be seen throught Java especially and maybe this is what Aluang is intolerant of. He would rather keep the naive unweary amongst the populas in the darkness of anti-Islamic rituals and beliefs and hope that Islamic orthodoxy does not take a deeper root in the country.
Yeah let’s raise hands for Islamic orthodoxy. Let’s rape women covered in burqa’s who dare to leave their houses without male company. Let’s curb freedom with medieval Shariah. Let’s slay all the infidels. Let’s hang gay people etc.. etc..
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Quick clarification – I was reading my blog stats on wordpress and found a link to this discussion leading into my blog, Strangers Oasis. I am not Dawud Farquhar, although he may have been posting comments on my blog, so please don’t mix the two of us up.
Siraaj
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@ Dawud Farquhar
You claimed to have a Singaporean wife (very doubtful), but you know nothing of the nusantara. You gave link to Poso conflict thinking it was Kalimantan conflict. You also wrongly claimed the violence in Poso and Maluku was by Javanese Islam. Take some time to read the link I gave below,
…Some forms of Arab/middle eastern Islamic rituals and theology were not appropriate for Indonesian culture and people…
People who attempted to spread middle eastern understandings of Islam were often contemptuous of how local people practised the religion, (considering it pagan, probably, although Syaiful Muslim of course did not use this term), and they claimed that their way was correct and had to be followed.
Your Arabian brand of Islam is not wanted here. May I suggest you knock on China’s door – Get the Chinese to bow toward Mecca 5 times a day; call them najis for eating pork; Arabic should be used instead of Mandarin; their centuries old tradition are unIslamic; all ancient ruins, artifacts and relics should be destroyed; Chinese women had to wear burqa; Chinese men had to keep their beard and wear nappies on their head. Sorry you don’t make a sale here.
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Hi Siraaj Muhammad,
You said:
Quick clarification – I was reading my blog stats on wordpress and found a link to this discussion leading into my blog, Strangers Oasis. I am not Dawud Farquhar, although he may have been posting comments on my blog, so please don’t mix the two of us up.
with emphasis on:
I am not Dawud Farquhar, although he may have been posting comments on my blog, so please don’t mix the two of us up.
Why? Is Dawud Farquhar THE PLAGUE?
_____________________
Welcome Lairedion,
Thanks for introducing yourself and the brief personal background.
Yeah let’s raise hands for Islamic orthodoxy. Let’s rape women covered in burqa’s who dare to leave their houses without male company. Let’s curb freedom with medieval Shariah. Let’s slay all the infidels. Let’s hang gay people etc.. etc..
LONG LIVE DAWUD FARQUHAR !!!
_____________________
To all the followers of Farquharism
“The only way to enjoy Faquharism is to be a masochist.
Go out and beat yourself to death.”(the Founder of Farquharism)
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Dawud said:
You know something khafi, I have discussed this issue to such a depth that if the so-called Quran’ites like you had been privy to those discussions and publications, you would have no resort except admit your weak arguments. You claim to be Muslim yet you reject the very essense of the Qur’an and Nabuwwa and Risaalah.
Firstly Brother Dawud, I am not a Quran’ite, I am a Muslim. I follow the instructions of Allah by reading what he has revealed to us in Torah, Kabur, Injeel, and Al Quran. I also read other religious scriptures, and it is easy to find what Allah has revealed in those also. As to rejecting the very essence of Al Quran, I doubt if you even know what that is. Brother Dawud, let me just remind you:
“Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabeans; whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret.” 2:62
“Believers, Jews, Sabeans and Christians;
whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall have nothing to fear or to regret
.” 5:69
Dawud also said:
As for the authority of the Sunnah, then it must be understood that the role of the Prophet Muhammad (S) was not as a mere postman who, after delivering his letter, has no concern with it whatsoever
However Allah tells Mohammed:
Therefore remind, you are only a Reminder. Thou art not impowered to act with authority over them. 88:21-22
We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My threat. 50:45
But if they turn away, then We have not sent you as a keeper over them; only deliverance is your duty 42.48
And if you deny, then nations before you did indeed deny and nothing is incumbent on the Messenger other than plain deliverance. 29.18
And whether We show you part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, only deliverance is your duty, while calling to account is Our business. 13.40
In any of the verses in Al Quran where we are told to follow Mohammed, The Prophet is always refered to as Rasul, never as Nabi, to follow The Rasul it is necessary to follow his message, Al Quran.
Dawud also said:
The Messenger was not sent just to deliver the Book of Allaah, but to explain it and demonstrate a practical example of its contents. (check 3:164) – This function of the Prophet (S) could not be carried out unless his guidance was held to be authoritative and binding upon his followers. Thus Allaah made obedience to His Messenger (S) an obligation upon mankind. (check 3:132, 24:54).
If The Prophet was here, alive in front of me I would follow whatever he told me, but all you have is the heresay, fabrications, and contradictions, of his Sunnah and Hadith. Nowhere in Al Quran are we told to follow them, in fact Al Quran says:
Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what hadith will they believe after God and His Signs? 45.6
Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what hadith after this will they then believe? 7.185
Allah has promised to protect His Revelation, Al Quran. He has given no such assurance for what you follow, even the most famous of Hadith, the last sermon of the Prophet which was witnessed by thousands of people, is available in three different versions:
1. Follow Quran and Sunnah (from Muwatta of Malik)
2. Follow Quran and Prophet’s Family (from Sahih al-Muslim)
3. Follow Quran alone (from Sahih al-Muslim)
Peace
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Dear Mohammed Khafi,
I thank you most sincerely.
Those passages that you have quoted, they are truly the most beautiful and healing utterances that I have read at this post more so because I am a non Muslim.
It reinforces my personal appreciation of Islam as being a glorious Religion when it is not adulterated by the wayward interpretations of other mortals.
“Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabeans; whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret.” 2:62
“Believers, Jews, Sabeans and Christians;
whoever believes in God and the last day and does what is right, shall have nothing to fear or to regret
.” 5:69
However Allah tells Mohammed:
Therefore remind, you are only a Reminder. Thou art not impowered to act with authority over them. 88:21-22
We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My threat. 50:45
But if they turn away, then We have not sent you as a keeper over them; only deliverance is your duty 42.48
And if you deny, then nations before you did indeed deny and nothing is incumbent on the Messenger other than plain deliverance. 29.18
And whether We show you part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, only deliverance is your duty, while calling to account is Our business. 13.40
In any of the verses in Al Quran where we are told to follow Mohammed, The Prophet is always refered to as Rasul, never as Nabi, to follow The Rasul it is necessary to follow his message, Al Quran.
The problem for me is that I have tried several times before to get the Quran in English but failed. Maybe I am looking for it at the wrong places, I don’t know.
Mohammed Khafi, I thank you once again.
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iamisaid,
It is my pleasure to try and help people understand, if you want online sources of Al Quran in English, please try here: Compared Translations of Al Quran
If you want translations into other languages try here Multiple Translations
Peace
The Minister of Religious Affairs, Republic of Komodo. 😉
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Dear Mohammed Kahfi,
iamisaid,
It is my pleasure to try and help people understand, if you want online sources of Al Quran in English, please try here: Compared Translations of Al Quran
If you want translations into other languages try here Multiple Translations
Peace
WOW! Thanks a zillion! I shall bookmark those websites.
The Minister of Religious Affairs, Republic of Komodo
It surely supports that the Republic of Komodo has the right man in the right job at the Republic of Komodo. 😉
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Lairedion writes:
>> I can only hope Indonesia won’t be overrun with such wahhabi idiots.
Its a matter of Semantics Lairedion. Where once parts of Indonesia saw itself under the occupation of the Dutch, today it is under the occupation of educational revival. Using misnomers like ‘wahhabi’ or other labels will not divert us from the fact that ‘idiots’ who want to keep Indonesia beyond intellectual and theological discourses are losing.
>> Christians, Muslims and Jews are rapidly destroying our planet in their lust for power and war.
Not necessarily in that order and not necessarily for ‘lust’ or for the sake of ‘war’. Remember that the vast majority of wars in the last 6 centuries have been mainly ‘Christian’. As for ‘Jews’, people are smart enough to make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. It is people like you who would blame the victim for resisting the occupation of the agressor.
>> The monotheistic religions and their followers have brought nothing but misery to our beautiful planet.
Monotheistic? Christianity has not been monotheistic since 325. Islam remain the ONLY monotheistic faith in the world in its very docrinal essence.
Your views are very welcom here and I think you need to figure out who you are before you decide to figure out what others are and what Indonesia needs :^)
Tot ziens.
_______________________________
khafir, When it comes to discussing religion, emotions and personal sentiments have no weight;
“Say (O Muhammad to mankind); If you love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you, your sins. Allah is oft-forgiving and merciful.” [3.38]
Follow who? Muhammad (S) and that should be enough for you to follow him and believe in him, if you need more read on”¦
So-called ‘quraniyah’ do not believe in the validity of hadith as part of the sacred law, they claim that the Quran is enough for them to follow. The founder GA Pervez challenged the scholars claiming that the hadith itself was not valid for a source of sacred law. He claimed that the hadith has varying degrees of unreliability because of a particular verse, we will go through each time that they claimed something and prove that it does not mean what it literally says or how they understand it.
This should be enough evidence:
“(O Muhammad, say to mankind); if you love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, merciful.” [trans of 3:31]
“We have not sent you (O Muhammad) except as a giver of glad tidings and a warner to all mankind but most of know not.” [trans of 34.28]
“Loving the Prophet is inextricably linked to loving Allaah; Indeed Allaah has combined them in the Qur’an and warned those who give precedence to anything such as relatives, wealth, land or anything else. Allaah says (that which translates as): “Say, [O Muhammad], ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein your fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allaah and His Messenger and Jihaad [i.e., striving] in His cause, then wait until Allaah executes His command. And Allaah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.'” (At-Tawbah: 24).
There are 19 times that obedience of the Prophet (S) is required in the Quran by Allah directly:
Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #285
Ahl Al-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #13
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #14
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #1
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #20
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #24
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #46
At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #71
An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #51
An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #52
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #33
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #66
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #71
Al-Fath, Chapter #48, Verse #17
Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #14
Al-Mujadila, Chapter #58, Verse #13
At-Taghabun, Chapter #64, Verse #12
Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #23 -
Its a matter of Semantics Lairedion. Where once parts of Indonesia saw itself under the occupation of the Dutch, today it is under the occupation of educational revival. Using misnomers like ‘wahhabi’ or other labels will not divert us from the fact that ‘idiots’ who want to keep Indonesia beyond intellectual and theological discourses are losing.
What a shame Indonesia is still under some kind of occupation, be it the Dutch or Islamists. If there’s a God please liberate the people of Indonesia.
Not necessarily in that order and not necessarily for ‘lust’ or for the sake of ‘war’. Remember that the vast majority of wars in the last 6 centuries have been mainly ‘Christian’. As for ‘Jews’, people are smart enough to make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism. It is people like you who would blame the victim for resisting the occupation of the agressor
I was not referring in any particular order and certainly not to any specific religion but to their followers. I really don’t know and care which of these three groups is the most warlike. History and present are showing they are. If you’re referring to the Palestines I can assure I wholeheartedly support their struggle against the Israeli agressor because they have every right to do so according to several UN resolutions. Nothing to do with religion.
Monotheistic? Christianity has not been monotheistic since 325. Islam remain the ONLY monotheistic faith in the world in its very docrinal essence.
You have a point here. I will refer to Abrahamic Religions and their followers in future postings. Thanks mate.
Your views are very welcom here and I think you need to figure out who you are before you decide to figure out what others are and what Indonesia needs :^)
Thank you for your compassion but I know who I am (an agnostic human being, most probably an infidel that needs to be converted or slaughtered in your mindset :-)) and no I don’t have the arrogance to know what Indonesia needs. That’s up to Indonesians like Aluang Anak Bayang, Mohammad Khafi and Achmad Sudarsono among others. I do know what Indonesia and the world doesn’t need, that is Farquharism!
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Dear Mohammad Khafi,
I need you to help me to understand this a bit more clearly.
Why do I start with this question has no direct bearing on understanding the teachings of Islam?
Frankly, the question arises because I wish to understand the inter and intra conflicts amongst various groups within Islam without going into the details of each group’s dogma, etc., if at all that is possible.
Hence, I arrived at this URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy
Wherein there was some reading material about Heresy. Before I proceed, I have to admit that whether that link can be considered as a worthy reference is not within my ability. So, for whatever it is worth plus the fact that I found something wherein I may raise my questions, this then is what it reported.
The questions that I have will be in italics and within parenthesis following the text quoted below.
(~phew, that took a while to finish my introduction)
Heresy in Islam
Bodies
The two main bodies of Islam are the Sunnis and the Shi’as. These main denominations view each other as heretical.
(Question 1 – What constitutes the separation of Sunnis and Shi’as?)
(Question 2 – To which body mentioned above is the unchallenged claimant as being the direct descendants of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad?)
(Question 3 – There being 2 different main bodies in Islam, do each have their Religious leader or do these 2 bodies share a common power base on Religious matters?)
(Question 4 – How does one tell the difference of a follower of either body?)
(Question 5 – How does one tell which body is predominant in any given country where Islam is practiced?)Groups
Groups like the Sufis, the Hurufiya and the Bektashi are regarded as heretical. Although Sufism is often accepted as valid by Shi’a and some Sunnis, Sunni movements like Wahhabism view it as heretical.
(Question 6 – Who decides what is heresy in Islam?)
(Question 7 – If there are 2 distinct bodies in Islam, why is it possible for groups such as the ones mentioned herein, allowed to propagate vis-a-vis the tenets of the Faith contained in the Quran?)Both the Ahmadiyya and the Nation of Islam are regarded by many Muslim Ulema as being apostate, but in the case of the Ahmadiyya movement, attitudes towards designating the sect apostatical, heretical or Islamic differ depending on region or Islamic schools of thought.
(Question 8 – In the world of Islam, is there a defined body or religious organisation that is accepted by Muslims all over the world as being the center, just like how Mecca is considered as the center of pilgrimage prayer in accordance to the teachings?)
In Pakistan, where most Ahmadis live, the state considers the group to be apostatical; whereas in the neighbouring state of Iran, the same group is considered to fall within the bounds of Islamic belief. Another example concerning the Ahmadiyya movement is the Al-Azhar Islamic University in Egypt, which accepts a certain Ahmadi belief concerning the nature of prophethood in Islam, considered by other schools as being heretical, to fall within Islamic jurisdiction.
(Question 9 – Can it be said that the practice of Islam varies in accordance to geographic locations and perhaps even local culture?)
Bid’ah in Religious Matters In Islam, bid’ah (Arabic: بدعة) is any type of innovation. Though innovations in worldly matters are acceptable to an extent, innovation within the religion is seen as a sin in Islam, as Muhammad stated as such:
“Whoever innovates something in this matter of ours [i.e., Islam] that is not a part of it, will have it rejected.” [1]
(Question 10 – From the above, the sanction about “innovation” is clear. Who determines and how is “innovation” appraised in matters both, secular and religious?)
[2] In addition, the Qur’an (which Muslims believe is the word of God) states:
” ..This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”[3]
Religious innovation means inventing a new way of worshipping Allah that was not originally included in the message revealed to Muhammad. There is ample evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah that bid’ah has never been tolerated in Sunni Islam, be it from Muhammad, or his companions, or the pious predecessors – particularly the four Imams (Abu Hanifa an-Nu’man, Malik ibn Anas, Muhammad ibn Idris ash-Shafi`i, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal). The late Shaikh Muhammad Uthaimeen, a prominent modern day scholar of Islam, wrote: “And there is no such thing in Islaam as bid’ah hasanah (good innovation).” [9] When a religious innovation is committed, it is generally felt that the innovator is assuming that the Sunnah is not good enough, that he must resort to something “better.” Even though this statement would be an admission of disbelief [10] – there are some innovations that contain shirk and there are some which allow someone to remain a Muslim, while his action is rejected (regardless of any sincerity it might have had)[11].
(Question 11 – When there be contradictions to the meanings of, the understanding of and the exhortations that belong to matters of the Faith of Islam, what does the follower of Islam do?
In Islam there are seven categories of Individuals:
Mu’min: used to describe a muslim Believer.
Fajir: used to describe a muslim who is wicked/evil doer, a sinner (by action).
Fasiq: used to describe a muslim who openly violates Islamic law.
Munafiq: Hypocrite, one who believes in another religion but declares to be a muslim. (sometimes used in non religious context).
Kafir: unbeliever in God, a sinner (by rejecting Islam), a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth. It is used to describe an unbeliever or an apostate from Islam)
Zindiq: A previous muslim who no longer accepts Islam.
ahl al-Kit̢b: Believers of monotheistic religions with a book. (Jews and Christians)(Question 12 РAre these 7 categories accepted by both bodies of Islam as well as accepted by the various Groups of Islam?)
(Question 13 – Are there instances that differ as opposed if the answer to Question 12 is in the affirmative?)Thanking in advance for you assistance.
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Lairedion Says:
I do know what Indonesia and the world doesn’t need, that is Farquharism!
Winner of the NOBEL RELIGIOUS PRIZE Award – 2008
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Secular Farquharism As Revealed.
Saudi King jeered as controversial visit begins
King Abdullah II of Saudi Arabia was greeted by jeers and placards as he began his state visit to Britain this afternoon as dozens of demonstrators turned out to protest at his country’s human rights record.
More of this report at:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2771570.eceWe need Saudi oil more than they need us. Sometimes it ‘pays’ to turn a blind eye to facts.
says Dawud Farquhar, London, England
Moral Question:
Can any mother be buried without being desecrated with Secular Farquharism ?
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I do know what Indonesia and the world doesn’t need, that is Farquharism!
LOL .. that really hit hard. But as a true Islamist, I bet he would come back for more beltings to save his own face.
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Basic Requisites for Farquharist Wannabe’s
1. Must have the ability to dodge questions.
2. Must be able to see with turn a blind eye to facts, both eyes blind even better.
3. Must be stubborn as a mule.
4. Must enjoy beating oneself to death.
5. Must be an Internet geek.
7. Must have immeasureable stamina for pain.
8. Must be able to detect unsuspecting potential converts.
9. Must never say Die even after being declared Dead.
10. Must have a proven record for lunacy.
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Dawud Farquhar said:
There are 19 times that obedience of the Prophet (S) is required in the Quran by Allah directly:
Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #285
Ahl Al-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #32
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #13
An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #14
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #1
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #20
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #24
Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #46
At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #71
An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #51
An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #52
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #33
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #66
Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, Verse #71
Al-Fath, Chapter #48, Verse #17
Al-Hujraat, Chapter #49, Verse #14
Al-Mujadila, Chapter #58, Verse #13
At-Taghabun, Chapter #64, Verse #12
Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #23Incorrect Brother Dawud, if you check these verses it clearly states ‘Messenger’ not ‘Prophet’, incumbent on obeying ‘The Messenger’ is obeying ‘The Message’.
This ‘Message’ is not Sunnah and Hadith, which as I have stated before are corrupt and full of contraditions because they are not protected by Allah, but is in fact, Al Quran, which Allah has vowed to protect.
Your unnaturally strong love for The Prophet has blinded you to the reality, that is why Allah tells us:
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. “We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers.” And they say: “We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.” 2:285
You said in an earlier post:
Islam does not change according to personal whims and desires and in the light of texts,
But that is just what has happened with your Sunnah and Hadith, they have changed Islam, they are not Divine Revelation, they are not protected by Allah, but you still in many cases have them overiding Al Quran.
Do you really believe the portrait that the hadith paint of The Prophet, one of a man who would have sex with a nine year old girl, who would gouge out the eyes of people and leave them out in the desert to die, who would have sex with all of his wives in one night? Is this what Islam means to you?
The Prophet, was a man of great wisdom, and bravery, a fair, just and honest man, who upheld the ideals of Islam, the religion of Abraham. He fought against injustice, and poverty, he encouraged his people to learn, he introduced equality for women, he stood up for his people, no matter what faith they were if they believed in The One God. Hardly the traits which we see in Mainstream Islam (Hadith and Sunnah followers) now are they?
The Prophet did not oppress and he did not force others to follow Al Quran because he understood that there are believers in all the Abrahanic Faiths and it is not his job to judge them, but Allah’s.
f you want a good example of The Prophet and his attitude to others, just read this declaration to St Catherines Monastery, an agreement sent by The Prophet himself and of which a copy still exists:
This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).I am afraid you have been mislead Dawud, what you champion is far from what the simplicity and goodness of Islam really is. A simple system of surrender to God, not your Arab traditions and fanciful stories.
Peace
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Dear iamisaid,
What a pity. I only qualifiy for the following requisites:
7. Only if I have an unhealthy desire for BDSM.
10. I can force my personal doctor issue a certificate. If he refuses I will kill the infidel.greetz,
LairedionP.S. Thank you for you coining the term “Farquharism”
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Hi there! Lairedion,
What a pity. I only qualifiy for the following requisites:
7. Only if I have an unhealthy desire for BDSM.
10. I can force my personal doctor issue a certificate. If he refuses I will kill the infidel.greetz,
LairedionP.S. Thank you for you coining the term “Farquharism”
ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MY ASS OFF!
You’re welcome Lairedion, it’s my pleasure to serve!
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Aluang A. Bayang says:
I bet he would come back for more beltings to save his own face.
By that it is to be assumed that he comes back walking in the gait of Homo Erectus.
But I have received a telegram that to avoid detection, he might come in walking on his hands to save his face and lose his ass!
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iamisaid, instead of using your Khafi ID, be a little more direct :^)
Here, let me help you…
The Status of Sunnah in Islam:. A Declaration that it cannot dispense with The Qur’an:
http://www.qss.org/articles/status.html
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Aluang kejaweni writes:
>> “¦but you know nothing of the nusantara.
Why would I want to know nusantara to get married to a S’porean? LOL, your doubts do not matter, but what is important is how your lack of tolerance and your lack of enthusiasm to tolerate differences is hindering your bigger picture. Make no mistake, Indonesia will soon be devoid of numb-skulls like you.
>> Your Arabian brand of Islam is not wanted here.
There is only one Islam and it is very much needed in Indonesia to replace their panthiest ideas. Oh yes it is very much needed and there is pretty much nothing you can do to turn the tide of orthodox revivalism. If you are happy with your kejaweni bubble, why not migrate to one of the many 14,000 uninhabited islands and start your own religion :^)
>> Dawud, let’s get serious.
You mean you’ve been joking all this while? Lets hope so”¦ I won’t stoop to your level and play your silly personal games, lets stick to issues at hand. Throughout the centuries, orientalists have made accusations and far-fetched theories to discredit Islam and its last Prophet.
>> I bet he would come back for more beltings to save his own face.
Make no mistake about it, I will be sticking around this board for a long time :^) When Islamophobes and anti-Muslim forces unite, you will see me there as the lone ranger :^) Bring it on kejaweni, lets see some more on your intolerant palaver?
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@ iamisaid
Let’s tell it like it is. Of course we aren’t the same person. tomaculum, iamisaid and Sputjam shared the same keyboard, and take turns to type at a Jakarta internet cafe.
The youtube link he gave was an incitement to murder. It shows decapilated bodies and pleading all Muslims to take arms and kill more innocent people (in this case to kill more Christians). This man is a lunatic, nothing admirable. Check for yourself.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMpMvEENdFc
Wrong! Any clear thinking individual with religion or no religion would be disturbed by the level of bigotry and amount of hatred in him. He associated his devious religious contemplation with True Islam.
It should be “But praise should be afforded to him because he believes in Satan. …
To him,
A muslim should act like a sheep, no question otherwise you’re a fake muslim or Islamophile.
A person who question has to be Christian, because Christian is his #1 enemy.
He is acting as if he is a Prophet.
You have natural ethnics, this creep has natural instinct. The only thing in common is the word ‘natural’. His natural instinct is attack anyone who disagree with him in the name of Islam.