Zainuddin MZ
Apr 3rd, 2007, in News, by PatungZainuddin MZ, the “cleric of a million followers”.
Vice president Jusuf Kalla said on the 2nd in Jakarta that Muslim leader Zainuddin had once again become a preacher for all Muslims in Indonesia.
Kalla said that in the past he had often listened to Zainuddin’s sermons but after Zainuddin entered politics and formed the Reform Star Party, Partai Bintang Reformasi (PBR), he didn’t listen to the sermons anymore, because Zainuddin had become a preacher for just a part of the faithful by his entrance into partisan politics. Previously he had been famously known as the “preacher of a million followers” (dai sejuta umat).
Zainuddin.
Zainuddin first formed the United Development Party of Reform (PPP Reformasi), a split off from the United Development Party (PPP), and in 2003 this new party changed its name to become the Partai Bintang Reformasi (PBR). Zainuddin led the PBR until mid 2006 at which time he decided not to re-contest the party leadership after some bruising and bitter internal fights (including a knifing attack on one party supporter) within the party.
Now Kalla said Zainuddin had returned to his proper, non-partisan, role, and he hoped that Zainuddin would once again preach to all Indonesian Muslims. Twenty percent of the world’s Muslims were Indonesian, said Kalla, and:
If Indonesian Muslims are good then 20% of the world Islamic community is good.
Kalla hoped that Indonesian Muslims could lead the way for world Islam and set a good example, with Zainuddin at the forefront. antara
44 Comments on “Zainuddin MZ”
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Aluang anak Bayang says:
Secondly, you can worship anything you want, birds and bees included, but for the sake of harmony please lighten up on the religious insults.
Are you serious? In all your posts, you’re always in favour of shariah and wanted them imposed, knowing full well that Indonesia is a multi-religious country. Why the change of tone?
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Hassan says:
Aluang anak Bayang: What makes you think that other forms of faith will be banned under Sharia? And “imposed”? I never impose anything ala FPI or the sorts. I was merely advocating and supporting Sharia, which is logical for a Muslim (a conservative one at least). And I did it without insulting other faiths.
As for the application of Sharia, when at a certain time in the future if the majority of Indonesian Muslims wants to apply it, then it should be allowed. That’s democracy, right? Majority decision, remember? Otherwise it would constitute tyranny by the minority.
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Muhammed Khafi: “A Muslim is simply somebody who submits to Allahs will, not just somebody who follows Al Quran as you seem to believe.”
Yet we won’t know what Allah SWT had willed without reading the Quran (and Hadith), unless we can directly communicate with Him.
“There are another 8 verses like this stating that Al Quran is a confirmation of what came before it, not a replacement.”
Islam is the final message from Allah, if the previous one were corrupted (as stated in the Qur’an) then should those people still practice them? Perhaps if the Jews followed to original uncorrupted Torah and the Christians used the original Injeel and didn’t worship Isa a.s. then your logic can apply, but it wasn’t the case, was it?
Islam is ‘rahmatan lil aalamiin’, it was sent when humanity was at the verge of being doomed, as the people of the Book had clearly went astray, and Allah’s followers had followed teachings that had been corrupted by their priests and rabbis. Without Islam, humanity will be left with corrupted versions of Allah’s religions.
Islam was sent to set those things straight (that’s why Al Qur’an clarified certain issues mentioned in the Torah and Injeel, and functioned as the Furqaan to distinguish right from wrong) and provide a renewed way to reach Allah’s Right Path. Answer this question, if there’s nothing wrong with the previous religions (Judaism and Christianity) then why would it be necessary for Allah SWT to establish a new religion called Islam? Why didn’t He just send some prophets to correct the problems?
For me, the answer is because the akidah of those other religions are broken beyond repair, hence a replacement that will last and provide a solid guidance for mankind till the end of days is required. As Allah SWT had stated “Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide”. Qur’an 92:12
As for your claim that even Islam itself had been corrupted (via the ‘introduction’ of the Sunnah and Hadith), well if we consider that Islam is “rahmatan lil aalamiin” then if Islam can only ‘save’ a small fraction of Muslims (such as your group) while the rest (the Hadith followers) will be thrown to hellfire, then that gift from Allah called Islam is only a small gift that can only lead a small number of it’s followers to the Right Path and ultimately, salvation. I know we’ve discussed this before, but it seems your logic has a few loose ends.
Lastly, if your claims that the majority of Muslims and had went astray then Allah had failed in His own mission as stated on Qur’an 92:12 as it looks like He can only guide a small fraction of His followers towards salvation.
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Muhammed Khafi; “Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.” 3:19
“Instead of accepting that Allahs Scriptures are all one, you have fallen into the same trap as those before you, and have convinced yourself or been convinced that your way is the only way, you are showing opposition after knowledge has come to you!”
I accept that all of Allah’s scripture came from Him, but some of the contents had been corrupted and others hadn’t been corrupted. Whilst I admit all of them (in their true forms) came from Allah, I do not need to acknowledge that all of them contain (especially the corrupted ones) the truth from Allah. Hence, I cannot and should not justify their contents and the actions of those who followed those Scriptures.
I am only responsible over what was given to me (the Qur’an), not what was given to Isa or Moses nor what will become of those who still followed the teachings of those corrupted Scriptures. I’m not in a position to say that the Jews and Christians will be thrown to hellfire or have the same opportunity to enter paradise, as I am in no position to determine my own fate in the afterlife, let alone speculating about the fate of the Jews and Christians. Allah SWT alone had the rights to determine that sort of things.
3:19 “Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam..” doesn’t need any more interpretations.
It seems you used reverse engineering when interpreting the Qur’an. First, you have your values (Pluralism, etc.) on one side and the Qur’an on the other, then you correlate your values with the Qur’an so that Qur’anic verses will sound as if it approves your values. Whereas it should have been the Qur’an that dictates your values, not the other way around.
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Robert says:
Hassan,
As for the application of Sharia, when at a certain time in the future if the majority of Indonesian Muslims wants to apply it, then it should be allowed. That’s democracy, right? Majority decision, remember? Otherwise it would constitute tyranny by the minority.
The most common misunderstanding about democracy is that it has only to do with what the majority of the people want. Wrong.
What you propose is the nightmare that some 19th century philosophers, like John Stuart Mill and Alexis de Toqueville feared. They were afraid that democracy would degenerate into a thing called tyranny of the majority.
In 1933 their nighmare became reality when democracy got Adolf Hitler into power, and the rest is history.True democracy has to do with the principles of a democratic law-state, like the violence-monopoly of the state, constitutional protection of minorities, maintaining the separation of powers (executive, legislature and judiciary) and freedom of speech.
How to prevent that one party draws all the power to itself and misuses its powers? Well, therefore the power of the majority needs to be controlled by a system of ‘checks and balances’ so that too great ambition is restrained. Also the separation of powers is the right tool to prevent misuse. In this way resistance against the majority is always possible. Maintaining the balance of powers is the biggest challenge in a true democracy.When you reduce democracy to a procedure where simply the majority of the people decide, then you reduce democracy to tyranny of the majority.
Maybe some Indonesians are buying your arguments, lots of others won’t, especially Europeans. In Europe you will find the results of your type of “democracy”, places like Auschwitz and Treblinka are the silent witnesses of that.
When Sharia is introduced, Indonesia will turn into another Saudi-Arabia and consequently the fate of religious and ethnic minorities will be sealed.Therefore I say:
Adolf Hitler, remember? tyranny of the majority, remember? -
Thanks Robert, I was going to respond with ‘once shariah is introduced, there is no way of getting it out. The rest of the other faiths are sealed’, but you put it better than I.
Maybe some Indonesians are buying your arguments, lots of others won’t, especially Europeans.
Yes some, and also especially ethnic Javanese. So far our presidentship has been ethnic Javanese and they have been opposing shariah.
Aluang anak Bayang: What makes you think that other forms of faith will be banned under Sharia? And “imposed”? I never impose anything ala FPI or the sorts. I was merely advocating and supporting Sharia, which is logical for a Muslim (a conservative one at least). And I did it without insulting other faiths.
Let’s examine your first shahada,
Read this:
‘ashadu anla elaha illa allah was ashadu anna mohammad rasulallah’
Translate as:
I bear witness that there is no God (none truely to be worshipped) but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah”.
Mas Hassan, it sounds very imposing to me. What do you think? You may try to be as polite as you can but your first shahada is very insulting especially to those who also think that their God is one true God. Unless your first shahada is removed along with hundreds of violent verses and absurd assertion that women are half intellegent, etc, other faiths may feel confident enough to vote for full shariah if it is going to eradicate corruption. I for one will be a proud Muslim. But then again, it is no longer shariah. -
Mohammed Khafi says:
Hassan said:
Muhammed Khafi: “A Muslim is simply somebody who submits to Allahs will, not just somebody who follows Al Quran as you seem to believe.”
Yet we won’t know what Allah SWT had willed without reading the Quran (and Hadith), unless we can directly communicate with Him.
You are conveniently forgetting the following verse:
“We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?” 2:91“There are another 8 verses like this stating that Al Quran is a confirmation of what came before it, not a replacement.”
Islam is the final message from Allah, if the previous one were corrupted (as stated in the Qur’an) then should those people still practice them? Perhaps if the Jews followed to original uncorrupted Torah and the Christians used the original Injeel and didn’t worship Isa a.s. then your logic can apply, but it wasn’t the case, was it?
But sone of the Christians and Jews do clearly follow Allah’s straight path:
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).22:40Islam is ‘rahmatan lil aalamiin’, it was sent when humanity was at the verge of being doomed, as the people of the Book had clearly went astray, and Allah’s followers had followed teachings that had been corrupted by their priests and rabbis. Without Islam, humanity will be left with corrupted versions of Allah’s religions.
Islam was sent to set those things straight (that’s why Al Qur’an clarified certain issues mentioned in the Torah and Injeel, and functioned as the Furqaan to distinguish right from wrong) and provide a renewed way to reach Allah’s Right Path. Answer this question, if there’s nothing wrong with the previous religions (Judaism and Christianity) then why would it be necessary for Allah SWT to establish a new religion called Islam? Why didn’t He just send some prophets to correct the problems?
He didn’t created a New Religion called Islam, Islam has always been his way from the very start, The Jews who follow Torah and not talmud are practicing Islam, The Christians who follow Injeel and not the Gospels are practicing Islam and the Muslims who followed Al Quran and not Sunnah and Hadith are practicing Islam.
You unfortunately are misapplying the word Islam to only apply to your religion when it simply means submission to Allah and is applicable to all Abrahamic religions:
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was upright, a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists. 3:67
For Nabi Ibrahim to have been a Muslim, he must have been following Islam!
Lastly, if your claims that the majority of Muslims and had went astray then Allah had failed in His own mission as stated on Qur’an 92:12 as it looks like He can only guide a small fraction of His followers towards salvation.
Read the rest of the verse,
Who give the lie to Truth and turn their backs.
But those most devoted to Allah shall be removed far from it,- 29:16-17It say most devoted to Allah, not to Muhammed, and not to Sunnah and Hadith!
And have in their minds no favour from anyone for which a reward is expected in return,
But only the desire to seek for the Countenance of their Lord Most High92:19-20Just look at this last verse, the whole of the teachings which you are given from Hadith are about gaining rewards from Allah, It will ultimately do you no good.
Verse “Al Lail” is all about the simplicity of Islam, which is Charity, Good Deeds and Worship of Allah.
I accept that all of Allah’s scripture came from Him, but some of the contents had been corrupted and others hadn’t been corrupted. Whilst I admit all of them (in their true forms) came from Allah, I do not need to acknowledge that all of them contain (especially the corrupted ones) the truth from Allah. Hence, I cannot and should not justify their contents and the actions of those who followed those Scriptures.
We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. 3:84
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Injeel.
Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong). 3:3-4You have to use Furqan, the criterion of right and wrong, but you are obliged to believe in the revelations (plural) of Allah. Of course you are free to do as you choose, but after being given clear instruction it seems strange that you want to disobey a direct command from Allah.
It is strange that you are still so confused about why so many people are lead astray, you are obviously an intelligent man, but still you want to reject Allah’s word in Al Quran, how about those less fortunate than yourself, the poorly educated and those of lesser intelligence, they don’t even have a chance to read The Book and understand it as you have done.
Peace
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Sputjam says:
Cukurungan, you are merely guessing on the prayer ritual. If you proceed, I believe you are wasting your effort and your time.
If you persist in applying the hadith to your faith, then you will surely be amongst those lead astray. For the hadith was not written by God.
Remember the stories of Moses, Jesus, Adam and all the other prophets. There was no mention of a ritual prayer or a pilgrimage at all.
Remember God’s warnings of those who takes religious scholars as their lord(meaning believe in what preachers preach).Hassan
2:110 And uphold the commitments and endow its purity. And anything you advance for yourself from the good things that you do – you will find it by God. Surely, God is with every deed – observing.You said –
Qur’an 20:14 “Lo! I, even I, am Allah, There is no Allah save Me. So serve Me and establish worship for My remembrance.”Could be –
Qur’an 20:14 “Lo! I, even I, am Allah, There is no Allah save Me. So serve Me and fulfil your commitments for My remembrance.”
You cannot establish worship when the method of performing the rituals are not stated in the koran. It is common sense.
What are our commitments. Our commitments are to those guidelines stated in the koran.Answer this question, if there’s nothing wrong with the previous religions (Judaism and Christianity) then why would it be necessary for Allah SWT to establish a new religion called Islam? Why didn’t He just send some prophets to correct the problems?
Since when was islam a religion? Since pagan Arabs reinvented the koran into their pagan religion is the answer.
The koran confirmed God’s way/system/order. It is not a religion. Some people defined it as a “way of life”. Religion are for priest and popes. Not for submitters (Muslims) of God. We are required to simply submit to God’s guidelines. It is so simple. All the guidlines are indicated in the koran. You cannot add anything more or delete anything to your fancy.
The Christians and the Jews couldn’t understand the simplicity. They establish rituals like sunday mass and built churches and temples, and establish priesthood and rabbis. The Koran merely highlighted the fact that this was not necessary to be with God’s system/way. The koran never asked Muslims to built mosques and establish imams.Your translation made by islam religionist “Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.” 3:19
Translation by those who believe in the deen of islam. 3:19. There is no other god except Him, the Almighty, the Judge. Thus, the only way of life (deen) by God is peacefulness (Islam) – And there is no dispute of those who were given the Book except after what has arrived to them the knowledge out of envy amongst them. And whoever disbelieves with the signs of God – thus God is very swift in reckoning.
Koran was made easy to understand and remember. The best translation are the ones easily understood, not those done by traditionalist who were influenced by Arab pagan worshippers and the hadith.
Think Mr Hassan. Observe the praying ritual that you have been doing. the term Allahuakbar was never mentioned in the koran. The tahiyat akhir only mentioned two prophets when this is clearly against the messages in the koran. The pagan Arabs have clearly mislead you and follow the path of Mohammed.
Disregard the hadith. Is is written by men with dubious distinction. We don’t even know who the writers were except their name.
But the worst thing for you to do is to blindly follow your religion.The Sharia law was created in order that the priest like Ayahtollahs will hold on to power. It is nothing to do with God’s messages.
Once these ayatollahs get their power, like in Iran, they will not let go. nd you cannot criticise these people, because you will be branded a heretic or traitor and be given the death sentence. The ayatollahs will use poeple like hassan to be the eyes and ears (spy) of the sharia council. It will be worse than dictatorship. I will not reccomend this. -
Robert: “How to prevent that one party draws all the power to itself and misuses its powers? Well, therefore the power of the majority needs to be controlled by a system of ‘checks and balances’ so that too great ambition is restrained.”
Yes, it had intrigued me to a certain extent how a mature democracy like the US had failed to restrain President Bush’s oily ambitions.
“Adolf Hitler, remember? tyranny of the majority, remember?”
George W. Bush, remember? Mature democracy, remember? You see Robert, I had always have reservations regarding democracy, in the way that once you can manipulate the sentiment of the majority of the masses, you can get away with almost anything. I believe the telecommunication and broadcasting industry are key and deciding factors in a democratic factors. That’s why a certain group of people who dominated the US governmental lobbies also dominated the US broadcasting and mass media industry. And no, I’m not being anti-Semitic.
Hitler used the nationalism and returning glory of the Reich sentiment which was prevalent in post WWI Germany to his advantage, while Bush Jr. used the 9/11 to the fullest extent as humanly (or inhumanly) possible. And the ‘checks and balances’ system and the general public? You can flush those down the drain once you can manipulate the sentiment of the majority.
Imagine this: the society of a purely democratic country became so corrupt, decadent, and vile that they chose the same kind of people as their president and senators. The senate will pass horrendous laws that will allow the vile people to do their vile lifestyles, the judicial system will pass on overly inhumane or lenient laws to accommodate their people’s ways, and the president will commit evil crimes towards humanity and both the senate and the public simply allows him.
PS. I wasn’t talking about America in my imaginary example.
Even the best man-made system if run by bad people will results in catastrophe. Indonesian democracy is a good example.
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Mohammed Khafi:
“You are conveniently forgetting the following verse:
“We believe in what was sent down to us:” yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: “Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?” 2:91″What was sent down to us (the Ummah of Muhammad ) is the Qur’an. Which means as a Muslim we must submit to the will of Allah SWT by following His commandments in the Quran (and Hadith, as Muhammad’s words & actions are divinely inspired).
“There are another 8 verses like this stating that Al Quran is a confirmation of what came before it, not a replacement.”
But it wasn’t just a confirmation, was it? If the Qur’an was a mere confirmation then why did it have significant differences than the previous teachings? Why didn’t the Qur’an teaches about upholding the Sabath? Why did the Qur’an teaches us about praying 5 times a day, which was not revealed to the Jews and Christians?
While the overall message of monotheism is basically the same over the ages, each and every prophets brought different syariats (teachings, methods of worship, etc.) for their followers. Believe me Khafi, I know that Islam as the monotheistic message from Allah SWT is a continuation of the previous messages, but if the message started as one, why did it end up as three significantly different ones? Logic dictates that there must be a correct one and two corrupted ones, right?
“He didn’t created a New Religion called Islam, Islam has always been His way from the very start, The Jews who follow Torah and not talmud are practicing Islam, The Christians who follow Injeel and not the Gospels are practicing Islam and the Muslims who followed Al Quran and not Sunnah and Hadith are practicing Islam.”
I agree (up to the last part of the sentence). Yet nowadays there are not many Jews who follows Torah and Christians who follows Injeel. My question, why practice older (and corrupted) teachings when the newer one (which came from the same source) is available? If you say the Jews followed Judaism and Christians followed Christianity because they were the religions that Allah brought for them, then you must be forgetting that Islam is for every humans beings of all races everywhere until the end of time. There’s no reason to keep up practicing those older faiths, unless your just being stubborn, or perhaps astray..
“You have to use Furqan, the criterion of right and wrong, but you are obliged to believe in the revelations (plural) of Allah.”
I believe in the uncorrupted form of Allah’s revelations. I believe that the uncorrupted versions came from Allah, but their current forms differ quite significantly than the original ones. Should I believe in the changed Scriptures (and their contents) as well?
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Aluang anak Bayang :
Let’s examine your first shahada,’ashadu anla elaha illa allah was ashadu anna mohammad rasulallah’
Translate as:
I bear witness that there is no God (none truely to be worshipped) but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah”.
Mas Hassan, it sounds very imposing to me. What do you think? You may try to be as polite as you can but your first shahada is very insulting especially to those who also think that their God is one true God. Unless your first shahada is removedRemove that part? Err, I hate to break it to you but that part is the very essence of monotheism. Perhaps an animist like you missed that point, but removing that part will remove every aspect of monotheism Islam currently has. Even liberals like Mohammed Khafi only thinks that the second part should be removed.
Let me ask you a question Aluang: what is monotheism to you? Acknowledging that other people had other gods that they worship (which means there are more than one god) but we chose to worship our god is NOT monotheism. There is only one God, who created and maintains the universe.
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Hassan,
Yes, it had intrigued me to a certain extent how a mature democracy like the US had failed to restrain President Bush’s oily ambitions.
First you have ask yourself whether the people wanted to restrain Bush’ ambitions. Apparently the people didn’t. The people got the president they asked for. Bush got full support for the invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11. Did democracy fail in that respect?
In an indirect democracy, like the US, is it very difficult to restrain a president as long as one party has the majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives and delivered the president.
Now the Democrates have the majority in the Congress, so Bush will get more resistance, what happened last wednesday when the Senate passed the stem-cell funding bill which Bush opposed.
When the American people are fed up with Bush, they can topple him in the 2008 Presidential Election. The same goes for the Senate and House of Representatives. Does democracy fail here?Differences between Nazi-Germany and present US are that in the latter there are democratic elections on Federal level as well as on State level. Other differences are that in the US there is an independent judiciary, and that Freedom of Speech is guaranteed. Hitler de-activated all these institutions, Bush didn’t.
I believe the telecommunication and broadcasting industry are key and deciding factors in a democratic factors.
I agree with you, but I believe that the same mass-media will contribute in the downfall of Bush.
Hitler used the nationalism and returning glory of the Reich sentiment which was prevalent in post WWI Germany to his advantage, while Bush Jr. used the 9/11 to the fullest extent as humanly (or inhumanly) possible.
Hitler took advantage of the bad economic situation and used it to its extent and therefore he used the Jews as scapegoats. Bush didn’t have to do anything, the footage of the collapsing Twin Towers did all the work. BTW, all politicians will take advantage of certain current developments if it suits their agenda, nothing new here.
Inspite of present US foreign policy, I think that protection of minorities, maintaining the separation of powers (executive, legislature and judiciary) and freedom of speech is better guaranteed in the present US than it ever will be in Sharia-state. Even in the US people have more religious freedom then in Indonesia. And btw why do you always look at the US for your examples? There are more democracies in the world. Why didn’t you look at France, Germany, Japan or Australia to name a few countries. And the US didn’t invent democracy in the first place.
To return to the subject of Sharia: Do you really think that when Sharia is introduced that matters will improve? What fate can Christians, Hindu’s and Buddhists expect when the Sharia is introduced? What about women’s Rights? What about the independant judiciary?
What about Indonesian diversity? Politicians don´t seem to care much about Indonesian diversity anyway, for example look at the Muslim Dress code in West-Sumatra, which replaces Minangkabau dresscode. Once Indonesia has become a Sharia-state, all the cultures, that make Indonesia unique, will slowly fade away. Why aren’t people proud of Indonesian diversity? Why has everything to be put in the Arabic meat-grinder called Sharia?
What intrigues me is that people are so eager to import the Sharia on the expense of their own identity.
If that’s what people want, maybe it’s better to join Saudi-Arabia and get it over with.
The day that Indonesia becomes a Sharia-state, Soekarno and Hatta will turn in their graves. -
Hassan said:
What was sent down to us (the Ummah of Muhammad ) is the Qur’an. Which means as a Muslim we must submit to the will of Allah SWT by following His commandments in the Quran (and Hadith, as Muhammad’s words & actions are divinely inspired).
I agree that we should follow what was sent in Al Quran, but to say that to do that we should follow Hadith is patently riduculous. Even if all Hadith are true and I think we can clearly show that most of them are not, they are still from men and not from God, The Prophet himself was not without fault and made mistakes which are recorded in Al Quran, how do you expect the compilers of Hadith to not make mistakes?
Allah clearly states “Now that I have given them this Book, Complete and Fully Detailed in which stories will they believe?”
But it wasn’t just a confirmation, was it? If the Qur’an was a mere confirmation then why did it have significant differences than the previous teachings? Why didn’t the Qur’an teaches about upholding the Sabath? Why did the Qur’an teaches us about praying 5 times a day, which was not revealed to the Jews and Christians?
It was a confirmation, Allah clearly states this in so many verses, the reason it is different is because it has been interpreted differently. You say pray 5 times a day, but that is just to make prayer fit with Hadith, I can only find mentioned by name 3 prayers, Sholatt-al Fajr, Sholat-al Esha, Sholat-al Wusta. This is exactly the same number of prayers which orthodox Jews observe! As to the Christians, the Didache, the oldest known liturgical manual for Christians, recommended disciples to pray the Lord’s Prayer three times a day.
Allah clearly says in Al Quran that some of the practices of the Jews were specifically for them because of their behaviour, and he has updated and changed them with later messages:Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah’s way, 4:160
And to those who were Jews We made unlawful all of those who have claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful. 6:146
While the overall message of monotheism is basically the same over the ages, each and every prophets brought different syariats (teachings, methods of worship, etc.) for their followers. Believe me Khafi, I know that Islam as the monotheistic message from Allah SWT is a continuation of the previous messages, but if the message started as one, why did it end up as three significantly different ones? Logic dictates that there must be a correct one and two corrupted ones, right?
My logic says that there are three corrupted ones, I don’t really think that mankind despite all of Gods revelations and help, have really learnt a great deal over time. Mankind has a way of screwing things up and making them unnecessarily complicated, possibly because of fear of God, but also some people don’t really have any belief and just do things because it gives them power and or wealth.
I agree (up to the last part of the sentence). Yet nowadays there are not many Jews who follows Torah and Christians who follows Injeel. My question, why practice older (and corrupted) teachings when the newer one (which came from the same source) is available? If you say the Jews followed Judaism and Christians followed Christianity because they were the religions that Allah brought for them, then you must be forgetting that Islam is for every humans beings of all races everywhere until the end of time. There’s no reason to keep up practicing those older faiths, unless your just being stubborn, or perhaps astray..
The point that I was trying to make was that if all the Abrahamic religions are from God, then there should be a centre path to follow which is the core of all of the religions. I personally think that it is already too late for Mainstream Islam, I really don’t believe that what they practice or believe is what Allah intended for us. If the true followers of every faith follow what they originally were given, there should be harmony of faith, but we are far from that, each religion has gone out of its way to create practices which God has not given them and creating discord in faith.
If Allah is happy to accept that His name is sufficiently praised in Churches and Temples then why can you not accept that fact and accept that each faith has their own path to the one God? To me anything which creates difference between the faiths is not from God.
I believe in the uncorrupted form of Allah’s revelations. I believe that the uncorrupted versions came from Allah, but their current forms differ quite significantly than the original ones. Should I believe in the changed Scriptures (and their contents) as well?
No, you have to follow what Allah tells you to do in Al Quran, and that is to believe what Allah has revealed from within them, in actual fact just how corrupted do you think they are? The corruption is not so much in what Allah originally revealed, but in what the believers now follow! Much like Islam!
Peace
Comment on “Zainuddin MZ”.
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Aluang anak Bayang:
To me, worshiping long dead ancestors is treacherous.
First of all, you (and Sputjam for that matter) failed to grasp the fact that Muslims did not worship the rocks of Ka’ba in Mecca. Secondly, you can worship anything you want, birds and bees included, but for the sake of harmony please lighten up on the religious insults.
Sputjam:
Qur’an 20:14 “Lo! I, even I, am Allah, There is no Allah save Me. So serve Me and establish worship for My remembrance.”
But of course you can alter the meanings by using your own “enlightened translation” version anytime you want. 😉
I’m also quite sure Muslims all over the world ever since the days of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the rightly guided caliphs, the Islamic golden age, and until present day had incorrectly interpreted the Holy Qur’an regarding the worshiping rituals subject, and perhaps on any other subjects for that matter. I reckon yours and your group’s interpretations are the only correct interpretations, and Allah SWT had given His personal guarantee to you about it. How awfully self-righteous of you.
Sputjam, people claiming to have the best knowledge or interpretation of the Qur’an or Hadith is nothing new, what makes you so sure yours are the ultimately correct one? Had Allah SWT given his direct approval, or had arrogance clouded your judgment?
Clearly you missed Qur’an 2:110 “And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: And whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah. for Allah sees Well all that ye do.”