Yusuf Lakaseng
Jan 18th, 2007, in News, by PatungPBR leader Yusuf Lakaseng has been reported to the police for blasphemy against Islam by Zaenal Ma’arif.
Zaenal Ma’arif, the one of the chairman of the Indonesian parliament, was expelled from the Partai Bintang Reformasi (PBR) on 8th January 2007 due to the fact that he had, in late December 2006, took a second wife and thereby become polygamous (see Zaenal Maarif). The expulsion of Zaenal from the Partai Bintang Reformasi was likely based on two factors: fear in the party that his very public polygamy would lose the PBR female votes at the next election, and, Zaenal’s enemies using the matter as an excuse to get rid of him and advance themselves.
Whatever the case the matter looks likely to become a protracted dispute, being fought out in the courts, and on the floor of the parliament (PBR members recently walked out in protest as Zaenal chaired a session of parliament).
On the 17th Zaenal, in company with representatives of a few small Islamic organisations, such as the ewan Dakwah Islamiyah Indonesia and Hizbullah, visited the central Jakarta police station to report the deputy secretary general of the PBR, Yusuf Lakaseng, as having committed blasphemy against Islam, by his opposition to Zaenal having taken another wife.
Zaenal says that Yusuf plans to dismiss all PBR officials across the country who are polygamous and that this move is insulting to Muslims, the Quran, and Islam, given that polygamy is a legitimate practice within religion.
Yusuf Lakaseng was formerly a leader of the left-wing Partai Rakyat Demokratik (PRD) and Zaenal also worries that he is bent on making the PBR a socialist Islamic party rather than just an Islamic one. vhr
Previously at the State Courthouse of South Jakarta, Bursah Zarnubi, another senior PBR leader, was also reported to the police over the same matter by representatives of some Muslim groups, but Zaenal denies being behind this. detik
139 Comments on “Yusuf Lakaseng”
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Mohammed Khafi says:
Hi Sgn,
Many thanks I am also enjoying this discussion:
You said:
As what other Christian friends wrote in this forum, it is not correct if you are referring “Gospels” to only the 4 books in the Bible.
I was of course refering to the 4 Canonical Gospels, that is the three Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John, these I believe are considered by some Christians to be the Four Pillars of the Church are they not? I have not even considered the New Testament Apochrypha, as I already have a busy schedule at the moment, that is for a moment of peace and quiet. 😉
What kind did your Al Quran say about the changes? Content? Grammar? From handwritting to electronics?
Al Quran is not very specific on this matter, it mentions parts of Scripture not being revealed, distortions during recitation, and changes being made after the people had understood the message. This does not imply textual corruption but more a corruption in the teaching, however we have to know which are the Divinly Inspired scriptures and which are not.
My understanding of this is, as I explained earlier, the Jews were given Taurat, but follow Talmud, the Christians were given Injeel (the Oral Traditions from Jesus) but follow written Gospels, and Mainstream Islam has unfortunately done the same by being given Al Quran but following Hadith and Sunnah.
And I am sorry to question you, how did you believe that Al Qur’an was God’s words?
Allah in Al Quran gives us a number of challanges to prove authorship, such as ” If it were from Other than God, within it you would find many contradictions” He also challenges anybody to produce something like it:
Say, “If all the humans and all the jinns banded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.” 17:88
If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful. 2:23
This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than GOD. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe. If they say, “He fabricated it,”
say, “Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful.” 10:37-38If they say, “He fabricated (the Quran),” tell them, “Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful.” 11:13
Do they say, “He made it all up?” Instead, they are simply disbelievers. Let them produce a Hadith like this, if they are truthful. 52:33-34
God In Al Quran challenges people to prove that Al Quran is not from him rather that just telling us it is.
For me the inclusivity of Al Quran, with the fact that nobody is excluded from Heaven as long as they believe in God, the Day of Judgement, and are good people is another reason that I believe it is from God.
Another reason that I believe as I do is the concept of original sin, according to my understanding of Christian teachings, all people are born with original sin, and these sins are not forgiven until that person has been baptised, that would mean that so many innocent babies have been condemned to eternity in Hell because they were unfortunate enough to die before being baptised, I can’t believe that that is the way of a caring and merciful God.
Well, if only John insisted that Jesus is God. How stupid (sorry to use this word) were the early church leaders, they should insert at least three other “gospels” to support this “concept”.
As I understand it the concept of 4 Gospels forming the Canonical Gopels was an idea put forward by Irenaeus of Lyons in 185 A.D., at that time the order of those 4 Gospels was not well known and the idea that Jesus was God came about from the fact that Irenaeus used the Gospel of John to review the other 3 Gospels. Since that time, the majority of biblical scholars have come to the conclusion that Marks Gospel was actually the earliest and it would seem reasonable to assume that it is also the closest reflection of the life of Jesus. There is a more detailed explanation of that here Gospel with links to the scho;astic works and other references if you are interested to take a look.
Peace
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Cukurungan says:
Ihaknt, sorry for my broken english because even LIA rejected me to take course there might too bad english couldn’t be improved anymore.
I mean if our bureaucrats (indo) has people like you at least 20% of them, Indo will become a better place to live for the people.
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Ihaknt says:
What did my comment have to do with me being ashamed with being Indo? Where did that come from?
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Grace and Mercy,
I for one have found nothing offensive in your posts, your depth of belief is most admirable, I have found the posts of both yourself and sgn to be most enlightening.
Peace
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Peter says:
Grace and Mercy,
I do seem to have directed those comments at you unwarrantedly. I was venting my frustration at other member of the discussion, but my thoughts came out as I was responding to your post. Maafkan saya.
As for the quotes, if I was truly intent upon causing a big stir and being an antagonist I could simply go to google.com and search for “contradictions in the Bible”, and I would find dozens of sites (i.e. “Answering Christianity”) listing numerous inconsistencies in the Bible that were written by hateful “Muslims” as a way to brag about how much better the Quran is than the Bible. I’ve read such lists many times before, and checked them against my hard copy of the Bible as well. I don’t mean to stir enmity between us, however, so I won’t go there. My point was that such inconsistencies are ultimately insignificant, and that human error here and there should not be highlighted more than the core, central messages of our scriptures (which are pretty much the same: i.e. be just, modest, loving, forgiving, reflect upon God, etc.).
In no way do I believe that small contradictions here and there in a book as huge as the Bible take anything away from its value. I understand why you would react that way to my comments, however, because one of the most common ways people try to discredit other religions is by finding such contradictions in their scriptures.
I have full respect for all religions, because I believe that they all contain essentially the same values, the only difference being in the way those values are communicated. I can be a little tough on Islam and Chrisianity sometimes, but perhaps that is because I see so many “Christians” and “Muslims” belittle each other and act childishly in religious debates. I don’t mean to pick on anyone here, but I always try to be thorough, and make us all really think about these things.
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Ihaknt,
I was just guessing if not when you will be back to Indo, or might be you are waiting inauguration of President indo Cukurungan bin Cukurmiring.
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Grace and Mercy says:
MK
Another reason that I believe as I do is the concept of original sin, according to my understanding of Christian teachings, all people are born with original sin, and these sins are not forgiven until that person has been baptised, that would mean that so many innocent babies have been condemned to eternity in Hell because they were unfortunate enough to die before being baptised, I can’t believe that that is the way of a caring and merciful God.
Again, let’s see it from the Biblical Christianity Point of View have to say about this.
I have already explain about our idea of original sin in a post replying to Cukurungan earlier in this page. But in short, to inherit the original sin means we as Adam and Eve descendant inherit a sinful nature which is contrary to God’s nature.
Forgiveness of sin does not come from Baptism. Some churches bapitze children, some churches baptize adults. But the underlining principle in all churches is for Christians to get baptized means to testify/acknowledge that now they belong to the family of God.
Forgiveness comes waaaaaayyyy earlier. Forgiveness comes roughly two thousand years ago when Christ died on the cross. Our acceptance of this act of forgiveness comes when we repent of our sins and ask Jesus to come into our life for the very first time. If you happen to go to a church that baptize you when you were a child, you will go through what they called confirmation. If you go to a church that baptize adults, then you get baptized.
But the underlining principle, no matter what “orthodox” church you go to, Baptism is not for forgivenes of sin.
As for children:
Jesus was quoted in the synoptices saying “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these”
Kids was given an automatic “get out of jail card”.
This is also written in the Old Testament. Specifically in the life of King David.
He committed adultery with Bathsheba, who was another man’s wife. He ended up killing the husband of Bathsheba. In the event of this adultery, Bathsheba got pregnant. To make a long story short, David repented, but God said, I will not let the child live long.
So David fasted and plea to God to change his mind. WHen the child was delivered, not too long the child died. After the child died David got up, break his fast, shower, worship God, put on royal robes and celebrated. His servant ask him why is he celebrating? And this is what David said
He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.
Notice what he said? I (David) will go to him (in Heaven). The child gets an automatic get out of jail card.
You can find this story in its entirity in 2 Samuel 11-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%2011-12;&version=31😉
Now, let me ask you about the inclusivity of your faith. If it was inclusive, why then the faith rejects the teaching of Biblical Christian Point of View, by claiming that the scriptures were corrupted? Because by rejecting it, then you have just exclude it. Am I right?
You said
at that time the order of those 4 Gospels was not well known and the idea that Jesus was God came about from the fact that Irenaeus used the Gospel of John to review the other 3 Gospels.
I am sorry, from a Biblical Christanity Point of View, that is simply not true. I have posted a long article in this post, i won’t repeat myself. The lithmus test that the church forefathers, which includes Irenaeus is that to be considered “inspired by the Holy Spirit” all scripture has to point to Jesus.
Let me again pose some tough questions for you to consider:
People say that all paths lead to God. Is not God the one who has the ultimate authority to say which path leads to Him? Its like going up to a mountain climbers can all say that all path will take you to the top of the mountain, but ultimately not all do, some path leads to the woods, some leads to the lake. Is not the one who can say which path leads to the top of the mountain is the One above that mountain?
How is salvation offered in your faith? Does it offer a guarantee?
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Peter
My point was that such inconsistencies are ultimately insignificant, and that human error here and there should not be highlighted more than the core, central messages of our scriptures (which are pretty much the same: i.e. be just, modest, loving, forgiving, reflect upon God, etc.).
Forgive me for being adamant, because my intention is pure, but I have to explain to you what is and what is not. I am doing this from a truly humble heart.
The core central message of my scripture which is the Bible, is not about human. It’s always been about God. The God who is full of love and kindness and always ready to give redemption to His people. That is the them repeated over and over and over again from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible was never about our how we should act, work or behave in order to win God’s approval.
I hope in all humility, you can see a difference.
God bless you!
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sgn says:
Hi Ali and Cukurungan,
Ali Says:
January 24th, 2007 at 7:53 am
I have to disagree with SGN “” accepting Jesus is not a “blanket” forgiveness for something you have not done. But whatever you have done will be forgiven if you sincerely repent and ask for his mercy, as simple as that.
I wrote:
The very important is Jesus save us from the death. He restored the relationship between God and us (who believe in this God’s free gift). Our sins are forgiven.When we have good relationship with God, we will know what God wants us to do or not to do.
I’m sorry if you misinterpreted my weak English. English is my third language after Sundanese and Indonesia languages.
Cukurungan Says:
January 24th, 2007 at 5:31 amLet say I accepted your offer to receive JSW in my heart but on other hand I want to satisfy my desire to rape my neighbors chinese lady.
When you received Jesus and let him dwell in your heart. You are a new born (new creation). Your ‘bad’ desires will be gone. But, if you set a condition like you said, you know what you get.
God is justice too. You may be punished according to your acts.
Ali is right
the question is whether or not you have enough time to repent and ask for forgiveness before He calls you.
The salvation is a serious matter. Don’t put the God in a test.
Agree with Joy, you are in my prayer.
/sgn
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Mohammed Khafi Says:
January 24th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Grace and Mercy,I for one have found nothing offensive in your posts, your depth of belief is most admirable, I have found the posts of both yourself and sgn to be most enlightening.
Peace
Thanks. You got my respect, too.
I’d added Cukurungan and you in my friends list. Hope both of you don’t mind.sgn
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Ali says:
SGN, a quick apology from me: when I said “I have to disagree with SGN “” accepting Jesus is not a “blanket” forgiveness for something…”, I did not really read your original statement, rather, I based it on Cukurungan’s interpretation of it.
Having read your actual statement, I don’t think you implied that future sins were forgiven, so I should say that Cukurungan misinterpreted it.
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Lyric from A Mythology Man after He Re-born Again, New-Creation and Receive Enlightenment from Lord of the Ring
I already enlightened so I can f***k any lady
I already enlightened so I can kill any body
I already enlightened so I can molest any kiddy
I already enlightened so I can suck any baby’s
I already enlightened so I can cheat any body
I already enlightened so I can steal any penny
I already enlightened so I can eat any babi
Even “¦even”¦even so I still can go to heaven lightly
Even”¦.even”¦.even so I still have eternal live easily
If it is so “¦why I do care to any body
If it is so”¦let me back to my way
If it is so”¦let me a be Moslem even dirty
If it is so”¦Cukurungan will be grounded since today.Sorry for everyone had offered me to be re-born again, I deeply regret couldn’t accept your offered. I think punishment or death is an easy part of my live rather than my neighbors and no one is not save anymore from my mischief.
Once again deeply I am sorry, I do hope never becomes member of the elite “devil is so real”. (check via goggles “bobo world Church Crime Chronicle”)
My suggestions before you posted any comment on your different religion prophet, preacher, priest and ustadz . Let check your self, your religion priest and your society. Are they clean and clear from an evil conduct? Why I said so let we recalled comment on “Aa Gym Poligamy Case” it was sounded like him already f…k any lady on earth but there is a devil is so real in the church community.
Regards,
Provokator no.1 -
Cukurungan, calm down dude, there are always good and bad people in every country, race, religion.
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Hi Grace and Mercy,
You said:
Now, let me ask you about the inclusivity of your faith. If it was inclusive, why then the faith rejects the teaching of Biblical Christian Point of View, by claiming that the scriptures were corrupted? Because by rejecting it, then you have just exclude it. Am I right?
I did actually answer this in a comment above but I think it is worth repeating. Al Quran is not very specific on this matter, it mentions parts of Scripture not being revealed, distortions during recitation, and changes being made after the people had understood the message. This does not imply textual corruption but more a corruption in the teaching, however we have to know which are the Divinely Inspired scriptures and which are not.
Where Al Quran is very clear is on associating others with God, God for me is self sufficient, he needs no others. I realise that many Muslims associate others with God, many will insist that Shahada, the expression of faith is incomplete without mentioning Prophet Mohammed, even though the original Shahada from Al Quran, transcripts of The Prophets and even early Islamic inscriptions on houses of worship do not support this version that they use.
But as you correctly say, there must be many paths to God, I am sure that the people of the Abrahamic religions are not the only ones to whom God has extended an invitation! And it is He who will be our Judge.
How is salvation offered in your faith? Does it offer a guarantee?
As I understand it salvation is offered to All who believe in God, His Day of Judgement and who do good deeds. This to me is the Essence of Islam. I have yet to find the Guarantee form in the Back of the Book! 😉
Of course there is the problem from an Islamic standpoint that God will not forgive that partners are set up besides him.
If however, as you have so patiently explained that you consider that Jesus is actually God, then maybe that would not apply to Christians, who knows, only God Himself/or Herself I guess?Peace
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Miss Indo 07 says:
Yes Cukurungan, Ali is right, there are always good and bad people in every religion.
We can see the examples here. A Moslem who sounds so happy to see a news about church crime so that he can show it to the world.
And also we can see the example of a Christian who always says bad thing about islam, those are the example of people who ruins this world. (You know who they are, don’t you?) -
Dimp says:
Hi Miss Indo 07,
Unfortunately there are always people who laugh at others bad features, I just don’t get it, rather than bettering himself, he’d rather point that bad features in others. I myself would rather accept criticism, stop and think, if the criticism was given with good intention and manner then I would try to better myself, when the criticism was given with not so good intention, then I’ll just laugh it off.
I know I am still learning, I still slip and fall, but when I got up I will try not to fall for the second time.
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Bro MK…
Lets have some fun shall we? In good spirit of course.
Let’s go back to the inclusivity bit… and forget about the text corrupted part.
I’ll write it as simple as possible not to undermine your understanding.
You say in your previous posts (plural) Islam is inclusive. Correct?
My question is: If Islam is inclusive, then should it not include the perspective of another faith? (e.g. If it is inclusive then it would accept the Bibilical point o view of the Christian faith, right?).
Because if not, then Islam to my understanding just excluded me.
But as you correctly say, there must be many paths to God,
I didn’t say that. I said people say there are many paths to God. However the only one who knows which path leads to him is God himself. The person who is above the mountain (borrowing from my previous illustration). So ultimately, there will only be one path, God’s path.
In my next sentence I’m making a statement here of my faith with no intention of slandering anyone:
The reason why I believe that the faith that I hold is God’s path is because in my faith it is God who is in action to PROVIDE that path instead of me looking or trying to find a path.
MK, I admire you and your zeal for the truth. I am praying for you to find that “guarantee”. God bless!
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Julita says:
Authenticity of the Holy Bible
In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, chose himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. First He manifest Himself through words and deeds. Then too God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets. After speaking in many ways and varied ways through the prophets, ‘now at last in these days God has spoken to us through His Son. Before His ascension Jesus the Son of God told His Apostles that He will send the Holy Spirit to help them. Not only at that time, the Holy Spirit is with us guiding us and those who lead us.These Apostles knew very well what ‘truth’ is and the consequence of ‘lying’, the 12 apostles died as martyrs for their faith. So strong were their commitment and their believe.
The last few paragraphs of the Holy Bible: I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the rods in this prophetic book, God will take away his share described in this book.
One more information all the religious book are read and checked by the church which Jesus Himself built, and this church put ‘Nihil Obstat, or Imprimatur’ showing that it is in accordance to the church teaching.If I may, how did the Qur’an came about. How do we know it is God’s message? Can anybody just make another book on and on? How did Mohammed get his messages?.
MK. The Jews say that only Jews will go to heaven, the Christians say that only Christians will go to heaven, Muslims say that only Muslims will go to heaven, but Al Quran says that ” Any who believe in God, believe in the Day of Judgement , and do good deeds, have nothing to fear from God”
I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. This could eb a reference to “God’s dispersed children”
So what are we worrying about? The Lord knows what to do. We do our part, give the good news to all but with kindness, we have to follow His footsteps and be at peace.
M.K. for your information the following are where it is stated Christ the King,
Kingdom of Christ can be found, very fast and simple go to the index of a Bible: in Isaiah, Matthew, Luke, John and Revelation. Read at the index of the Holy Bible to make sure.M.K. All which written in the Holy Bible are precious to us, the Old as well as the New Testament. They are all included in the daily Mass all over the world. Show you one example at Mass was read or sung: Psalm 96.7-8. Romans 12, 16-21, Psalm 101, 16-17, Matthew 8, 1-13, Psalm 117 16-17, Luke 5, 22. They are uniform all over the world the same readings.
Anybody asking about sin. Yes, because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross we are reconciled with God. God forgives but we are still responsible for our sin. So the idea of do whatever we like, do all sinful acts as we wish, is not very wise, you have to pay the price for it, do your penance. If you want to know how and why, go to the right source.
According to light-hearted article in German magazine, Der Spiegel, the top crime neighbourhood in the world is found not in Sao Paulo, Brazil or in New York’s Bronx but in the Vatican where pickpockets are rampant among the tourists.
I once went to Bali, our guide said Bali is a very peaceful and safe place. They used leave their house door our open, leave their bicyle anywhere and nobody steals it. Now people coming from out side it is not that safe anymore. Do mean to say that Hindu Bali are doing it? Come on.
People from all over the world visit Vatican they are mostly pilgrims. They know what sin is. Though the pick pocketing has nothing to do with the religion in Vatican or with these pilgrims they are the targets. Just like that man who tried to kill the Holy Father John Paul II, was he a Christian or something else? I think he is more a Moslem, no? (Sorry, you came up with this not me). So I really hope we are all adults we should talk like adults, do our reasoning. Not just for the joy of badmouthing religion.
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Hi Dimp, yes I agree with you, wer’e not perfect, but at least we try to be a better person.
And we don’t need to point to other people’s bad features to make ourselves look better. But I see there are some people who has the urge to see at others’ bad features to entertain himself and make himself feel better. -
Mercy say:
What does your faith teach about salvation? How could one attain salvation in your faith?
Cukurungan answer:
Sorry might I am not qualified enough acting on behalf of all Moslem view because I am just only a dirty Moslem, anyway let me answer your question based on what I has been learned from Qur’an and Hadist Soheh.
So far I know there is no salvation teaching in our belief what our beloved prophet and qur’an said that every mankind will be judge by God Him Self in the Final Judgment Day. Every Mankind will be accountable for” what God given to Them” against ” What They Done with God Given” if the balance of the Bad Deeds heavier than the Good Deeds they will simply be end-up to Hell fire otherwise will go to Heaven. In the basic Islamic teaching, there is no free zone in the live after death, you will be end-up either in garden or hellfire depend on yourself no one can warranty of your fate. Those prosecutions process we called as “HISAB” will be varied for every mankind depend on their respective God Given. However, in general a rich people will take HISAB process much longer than a poor one. It can be 100 years or 500 years only God know.
I would emphasis that our prophet was promise nothing to His follower, He just provide us an example how to become a Good Man Kind as written in Quran.
He just only God messenger chosen among us and called man kind to follow his way because no other way to escape agony of Hellfire except follow His path.(no God except Allah and Muhammad is His messenger). This word sound simple but the consequence whoever believe of this simple word is very considerable.
Might one of you is asking, is there any way to escape from those prolonged Hisab? Yes. the only a way to escape Hisab process, it is go for Jihad and died as Syuhada, it sound easy but actually not that simple because in Islam a suicide is strongly prohibited and whoever commit suicide will be end up in the hellfire forever.
Sorry I do not intend to insult other belief just I would like you to challenge your logical strength of God Given. Will you believe if someone asking you to invest your money in his business with “Full Warranty” pasti untung dan bunga per bulan 10%. If you believe with such kind of promise just go head because yourself and not mine will be accountable for your God Given.
Regards,
Dirty Moslem -
Cuk, thank you for your elaborate answer from your point of view of what your faith teaches you.
Sorry I do not intend to insult other belief just I would like you to challenge your logical strength of God Given.
Not insulted at all…believe me.
Will you believe if someone asking you to invest your money in his business with “Full Warranty” pasti untung dan bunga per bulan 10%.
If that person is not credible, then of course not. Who would?
If it was a credible person who works in a credible institution like a bank, and a healthy bank warranted by the government (10% is pretty close to the interest rate they give) the answer is YES, i believe them, and the money I saved in the deposit is earning interest as we speak.
Do you want to connect that with regards to the salvation offer with “full warranty”?
If the one who is offering it was just an ordinary person who has no credibility to make such an offer, I would say NO, in a heart beat.
But no ordinary person in history has ever, EVER…. made such an offer either!
If the one who is offering it is God, then of course I would say yes.
He did offer…
I said yes… 😉
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Grace and Mercy, Julita,
Thank you both for tolerating my questions and being so helpful, I have no intention of being insulting or derogatory, so please bear that in mind.
Grace and Mercy you said:
My question is: If Islam is inclusive, then should it not include the perspective of another faith? (e.g. If it is inclusive then it would accept the Bibilical point o view of the Christian faith, right?).
I think it is fair to say that it is inclusive, however it is not totally inclusive. 🙂
Here are some of the relevant verses:
Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous. 7:159Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. 5:46
The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD’s revelations are the wicked. 5:47
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the Sabians; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. 2:62 & 5:69
They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD’s revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate. 3:113-114
They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.
Surely, some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in GOD, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence GOD, and they never trade away GOD’s revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. GOD is the most efficient in reckoning. 3:199
I don’t really need the guarantee Grace and Mercy, I just need the truth! Unfortunately the more knowledable I try to become, the more puzzles are presented to me.
Julita you said:
I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. This could eb a reference to “God’s dispersed children”
I find many wonderful things about Jesus as any good Muslim should, so I guess in a way I have heard his voice, but from what I understand unless I accept Jesus as God, that is insufficient. Whilst I have the greatest admiration for Jesus as a teacher and as an example for mankind I cannot accept him as being equal to God himself.
Thank you both again for assisting in my search for the truth.
Peace
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MK, it has and still is indulging to be having a discussion with you.
Whilst I have the greatest admiration for Jesus as a teacher and as an example for mankind I cannot accept him as being equal to God himself.
That’s fair 🙂
Thank you both again for assisting in my search for the truth.
Who am I to assist you, but if you say so, thank you for saying so and I admire your humility.
I just need the truth!
In all humility I am say that you are in my prayers to find that truth. God bless you!
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But I see there are some people who has the urge to see at others’ bad features to entertain himself and make himself feel better.
These people are obviously very low in self-esteem, they need to see others flaws to feel better about him/herself. I actually feel sorry for these people, I would not be surprised considering there are still a lot of Indonesian with the “begging” mentality.
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…
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M.K. Thank you both for tolerating my questions and being so helpful, I have no intention of being insulting or derogatory, so please bear that in mind.
Well, I would like to respond before this section is wrapped up. Likewise I appreciate your information. A valuable dialogue not only for us but for many others.
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Dear Mercy,
Many thanks for your passion, here again my question:
There is one’s my question has not yet answered. How about fate who one’s reject or denying
that JSW as myself I didn’t believe that God ever made such offering.Could you please tell me where is the souls of Hitler now. Is he queuing in the gate of Jesus Kingdom.
What is bible said about who consciously rejected JSW and the one who never received such offering. As you know JSW was took place 2000 years a go while modern communication was available 1000 years later after JSW. So there are billion people never heard such offering.
Regard,
Truth Pad Finder -
Cuk, what pad are you looking for?
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Hi Cuk…
Good morning! I will answer your questions:
How about fate who one’s reject or denying that JSW as myself I didn’t believe that God ever made such offering.
The fate of those who continually REJECTS and/or DENIES (so I make myself clear) would be a Christ-less eternity. Where would that be? I don’t know, I’ve never been there, and I don’t want to go there 🙂 I do know that a Christ-less eternity is not where God reigns.
Don’t worry though, many people rejected it the first few times they hear it. I rejected it, and I was born to a Christian family. I’ve heard the Gospel practically ever since I was born. But the Gospel didn’t make any sense to me, and I chose to live my life according to my desires. Then back in 1999, I had a turning point in my life that started a process of hunger and thirst for the truth. Little did I know at that time, this process was actually an active work of the Holy Spirit in me. I heard the Gospel again with a different and receptive heart.
In 2002 I gave my life to Jesus Christ.
Only by the Holy Spirit’s conviction can one person receives it.
That’s why I have you in my prayers, that you will one day hear the Gospel with a different heart 🙂 I hope you don’t mind that I am praying for you.
Could you please tell me where is the souls of Hitler now. Is he queuing in the gate of Jesus Kingdom.
I don’t know where Hitler’s soul is. I don’t know, I’ve never been there, and I don’t want to go there 🙂 But I know for sure that he’s not queing at the gate of Jesus’ Kingdom.
What is bible said about who consciously rejected JSW and the one who never received such offering.
The ones who conciously rejects: I answered that in my previous answer in this post
For those who have never receive (heard) it because of communication limitation for example (e.g a tribe in the deep of the Amazon), I would like to quote a verse from the Bible that also eases me aboout the same question I have back then. It’s taken from 1 Corinthian 5:12 and I am taking it from 2 different translation New King James and New Living Translation.
In it Paul says:
“For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?” (NKJV)
“It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.” (NLT)
I hope my response will answer your questions.
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Dear Mercy,
Why are you so sure that Hitler is not queing in there. Hitler already carried out the historical duties to maintain a natural balance of the word by reducing number of predator. I thought whatever he did he is the one who believe in JSW. So he should deserve eternal live.
Sorry again just assume that I accepted JSW so then who is person I should take as an example to becomes a good Christian man.
When God was in duties as Jesus who was at that time took care GOD Business like manage the universe and angles.
Is there any clear line about what can be questioned and what should not be questioned in Christian Teaching?
Regards,
Truth Pad Finder -
Hi Cuk,
Why are you so sure that Hittler is not queing in there.
Because Jesus never told anyone to kill anybody.. That’s why I am sure 😉
I thought whatever he did he is the one who believe in JSW. So he should deserve eternal live.
Emmmm.. I don’t think he believes in JSW. If he did, his action would have been different.. 🙂
Sorry again just assume that I accepted JSW so then who is person I should take as an example to becomes a goods Christian man.
That person would be Jesus. It’s easy to find good examples of him in the Bible, and the Bible has been translated to thousands of languages so it won’t be too hard.
If you become a Christian and finds a good church (not like the ones you saw on bobo) then the pastor who lives a good Christian life could be a good example, the good friends you meet who are following the examples of Jesus would be a good one also. But I would not trust on them 100%, I trust my Bible, and if my friends are not doing what the Bible says, then they are probably not good Christians, and I should look for new friends.
If you do become a Christian, I’ll befriend you. I am not perfect, but I do love the LORD, and I’ll try my best to be a good example to you. But if I stumble, you would also have a duty to correct me. We’ll both rely on the guidance of the Spirit to lead a good Christian life. But if you don’t become a Christian, I’ll also befriend you if you want.
When God was in duties as Jesus who was at that time took care GOD Business like manage the universe and angles.
The answer is God! Is God so limited that when he couldn’t do both at the same time?
Is there any clear line about what can be questioned and what should not be questioned in Christian Teaching?
God infact challenge us to reason with him. Through the prophet Isaiah, God said “Come now, let us reason together” (Isaiah 1:18).
Comment on “Yusuf Lakaseng”.
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Cuk, two things:
1. The crimes are mostly petty crimes.
2. Commited by pilgrims and tourists.
Thanks for the trivia though.
Hassan,
It is more that because the victims have more reliable reason that the law in the US will be just and punish the offenders, unlike in some countries where the victims are too embarrassed to report the crime. Not too mentioned that they are too afraid to report the offenders due to retaliation. Overall the crime-rate in the US is a problem but the government is actually doing something about it.
Indonesia’s corruption is rampant and again just like other crimes that took place in Indonesia the high number of the reported case is much lower than the actual corruption case that took place.
I don’t say that corruption does not happen in other countries, Enron for example, but you can see that when corruptors are caught in the US or other advanced countries they get punished severely. Unlike in Indonesia where they just get punished lightly and then they can still become a candidate as head of political party, what a joke.